All-Star Suggestions For Improving Scoring

[Deleted member 15]

I pay $75 each year for re-certification as a soccer referee - which includes a yearly one-day course and exam. Doesn't include any equipment I have to buy, like uniforms or linesman's flags. I expect to recoup my investment by working games. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask judges to pay for a yearly certification class with the expectation they'll recoup their investment by working at competitions.

I agree with the general idea that certifying judges makes little sense unless you have a universal scoresheet. As I said in another thread, that's the one thing that would exponentially improve scoring.

Are there any hidden costs added to the soccer re-certification, such as time off work, travel, etc., or is $75 and a weekend afternoon the extent of it?

 

[Deleted member 15]

@socratesofcheer @MissBee Are you guys up for a homework assignment/test?

 

[Deleted member 15]

is there a list of what deductions equal what? i feel like there is so can anyone tell me where to find it? ( but if there is not there should be)

Varsity - http://www.varsityallstar.com/aspne...ources/2010_2011_Varsity_Deduction_System.pdf

JAM Brands - http://www.thejambrands.com/JAMScore/Cheer/1011JAMBrandsPointDeductionSystem.pdf

 

[Deleted member 15]

I feel like this thread is taking on 2 separate topics now (1) certification of judges and (2) what should the universal scoresheet look like. Perhaps we should split it out into 2 threads?

Anyway I'd like to comment on (1). As a certified personal trainer I paid $300 up front and studied for months to pass an exam to become a trainer through the governing body. Every 3 years I have to pay around another $300-400 in continuing education courses in order to keep my certification.

I had to pass a written exam, and participate in practical applications with actual clients while being observed. It was hard, and some people paid all that money and didn't pass.

I glady paid for the certification because I wanted the great income that a trainer makes. This same system could work if a standard of excellence in certification was rewarded with a high level of pay. Thoughts?

I worked for a CPA and Consulting firm for 6 years and paid thousands of dollars, probably more than $10,000 over 6 years, for certifications and continuing education. I was okay with that because I earned over $300,000 related to that training over the same 6 years, and knew I'd earn something in that ballpark as I was paying for the training. In addition, it was a full time job so there were benefits on top of the salary.

Paying a couple hundred to get certified for the chance to earn a couple thousand over the course of a season isn't a chance I think a lot of people will take.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I'm going to bring up something @Andre brought up in a separate thread in response to judges being paid more (which seems to be a popular attempt at solving the poor judging problem). I am 100% in FAVOR of paying judges more, I'd be happy to pay more for a quality judge than a big backdrop, light show etc. etc. etc. Now with that being said, IF judges are paid more they should be required to be trained better, longer. That would eliminate the increased # of those that want to be judges. I would prefer an attempt at training similar to gymnastics judges (bc that's the only other requirements I'm familiar, don't know how ice skating etc etc do it) I believe longer, more expensive, more in depth training is a MUST, and if people don't wanna do it, they don't HAVE to judge. FEWER QUALITY JUDGES isn't a bad thing, I also think this might help LIMIT some garbage comps if they can't find the QUALIFIED judges!!!!

More expensive worries me because I it will lead to some of the experienced people you want to keep stepping down, but more importantly will stop new judges from entering the system.

 

[Level5Mom]

I worked for a CPA and Consulting firm for 6 years and paid thousands of dollars, probably more than $10,000 over 6 years, for certifications and continuing education. I was okay with that because I earned over $300,000 related to that training over the same 6 years, and knew I'd earn something in that ballpark as I was paying for the training. In addition, it was a full time job so there were benefits on top of the salary.

Paying a couple hundred to get certified for the chance to earn a couple thousand over the course of a season isn't a chance I think a lot of people will take.

How much should a judge earn in a weekend to make it worthwhile? $1000 per weekend? $2000 per weekend?

 

[cheerlove]

Varsity - http://www.varsityallstar.com/aspne...ources/2010_2011_Varsity_Deduction_System.pdf

JAM Brands - http://www.thejambrands.com/JAMScore/Cheer/1011JAMBrandsPointDeductionSystem.pdf

thanks! are either of these used for worlds?

 

[MissBee]

I feel like judges need to be paid based on the number of teams judged. There are some comps that you go to, are paid $125 for the day and you judge 20-30 rec teams. Yay, easy stuff. The next weekend you go to another comp and are paid $125 to judge 70-90 routines over the course of 12 hours (plus the judges have to travel to the venue, I know some that have flown cross country, on the red eye, to come judge). Sure, that's $10.41 an hour-but you have limited breaks and the lights and loud music get to you. The way comps are set up, you start at 9am with the tiny/mini and it's the end of the day when you get to the 5s/6s that are going for a Worlds Bid. So the judges are totally fatigued by the time they get to the routines where there is money on the line. This is where I feel like having level certification comes into play. You pay a panel $100 each to come in and do L1-3 (from 8am to 2pm) and then a second panel to come in at 2pm and do L4-6. You have to be certified at your level (pass the test for those levels, knowing skills, rules, deductions, safety etc). It'll cost a little bit more to pay the judges, but you're getting fresh eyes, and people who are specialized in the levels competing.

 

[Deleted member 15]

How much should a judge earn in a weekend to make it worthwhile? $1000 per weekend? $2000 per weekend?

That depends on how much training costs. I'd like to be able to recover the total cost of training in one event. Total cost including all out of pocket costs plus consideration for time taken off work if it's necessary.

 

[Deleted member 15]

thanks! are either of these used for worlds?

No, the Worlds deduction sheet hasn't been published online. At least no one I know has been able to find it.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I feel like judges need to be paid based on the number of teams judged. There are some comps that you go to, are paid $125 for the day and you judge 20-30 rec teams. Yay, easy stuff. The next weekend you go to another comp and are paid $125 to judge 70-90 routines over the course of 12 hours (plus the judges have to travel to the venue, I know some that have flown cross country, on the red eye, to come judge). Sure, that's $10.41 an hour-but you have limited breaks and the lights and loud music get to you. The way comps are set up, you start at 9am with the tiny/mini and it's the end of the day when you get to the 5s/6s that are going for a Worlds Bid. So the judges are totally fatigued by the time they get to the routines where there is money on the line. This is where I feel like having level certification comes into play. You pay a panel $100 each to come in and do L1-3 (from 8am to 2pm) and then a second panel to come in at 2pm and do L4-6. You have to be certified at your level (pass the test for those levels, knowing skills, rules, deductions, safety etc). It'll cost a little bit more to pay the judges, but you're getting fresh eyes, and people who are specialized in the levels competing.

With the majority of the costs of judges at a competition being travel and accommodations, is it worth the increase in registration fees I assume would happen if more judges are needed?

 

[yojaehs]

More expensive worries me because I it will lead to some of the experienced people you want to keep stepping down, but more importantly will stop new judges from entering the system.

If judges are rewarded for their time then it would offset. I don't think just anybody should be allowed to judge.

 

[Rudags]

I like the 'thought' behind the Champion Spirit Group Scoresheets. It outlines what you have to do to score what. I wish every scoresheet was that specific. CSG still has a lot of kinks to get out of their scoring, but the idea is there, and I like it.

 

[SaraDee023]

SpiritFest in CT gave a breakdown of what every team in your division scored in each catergory. I loved it. I felt it was truly helpful to see who was beating you and where. Instead of just seeing that team A is beating you by 2 points, you got to see where exactly they gained those points. I wish all companies would do something similar. Just a score breakdown isn't enough.

I agree. i also feel that some of the scoring needs to be kept more consistent. at some of our competitions the judging was very questionable....for example out tiny level 1 had only a few girls not doing back walk overs but didnt score majority tumbling, but our non travel senior level 1 had 36 girls and 5 doing walkovers but scored higher?

 

[newcheerdad]

Are there any hidden costs added to the soccer re-certification, such as time off work, travel, etc., or is $75 and a weekend afternoon the extent of it?

Most soccer matches, especially rec games, are usually at night and on weekends. And if you're working with a local association, travel really isn't an issue. Even if you're always an assistant on a U12 game as a grade 9 referee, you should be able to recoup your certification costs after just a few games.

Now, if you want to work out-of-town tournaments, yeah, there's travel involved. But most tournaments I've worked pay mileage and a per diem. Some pay for your motel. But you often only get into those tournaments if you're a grade 7 (or sometimes a grade 8) referee - and you only can move up to those grades if you've reffed so many games, gotten positive assesments and passed a fitness test.