All-Star Starting A Discussion: The Safety Of Spring Floor Vs... Well.. Anything Else

[King]

Ugh, look, I dont wanna start a fight. Just realize that there is a difference between sayin "Please elaborate on your opinion" and "Are you sure you believe that and not this?"
It's all about wording and tone. It sounds like you are talking down to people a lot.
Thats my two cents. Just, think about it.
Andy out.

There is no fight. It is a discussion board and we are discussing. Couple issues:

1. The initial question was 'Is there a surface that is really safe besides spring floor? And if so, please explain why?' So I am putting out there a postulate that spring floor is 'safer'. If someone presents a point that disagrees with the initial statement they are asked to provide proof and a counterpoint. At which point I NEVER said anyone had a wrong opinion. That isn't the way to discuss. I ask the questions that show the leaks in logic from presented counter points. If someone presented a point which I couldn't either refute OR ask a question to point out a hole I would concede.

2. There is a counterpoint to all this and that is that lower end skills in certain situations are within the realm of acceptable risk and therefor equally as safe whether being on grass, cement, or spring floor. A thigh stand carries equal risk no matter the surface as long as their is good training. I actually think I agreed with someone a few times on that.

3. If it truly bothers you enough to derail a thread then yes I will continue the discussion about your opinion for a while. You can always feel free to PM me. You could have started another thread. But if its put out into a thread I approach it not as an admin, but as someone else involved in the discussion.

4. Last, can you find fault with any of the questions I asked?

 

[BlueCat]

Either be a moderator or be a debater, you cant be both.

Why not? This is a message board. He is allowed to have an opinion.

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

Jim Lord posted a pie chart to his Facebook wall about cheer injuries compared to football. I tried to post it but can't figure it out from my phone.

It says catastrophic injuries from hs and college cheer is 3 in 2010 compared to 42 from football. My question is are we ok with 3 kids not being able to walk anymore bc they were cheering on the sideline for their team. Was their any injuries this serious from All Star gyms in 2010??

Last question which is off that subject. Does anyone else feel like 1 3/8 inch foam isn't much softer than a basketball court when falling from 10 feet high??


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[ian]

As one of many cheerleaders who cheer for both High School & All Star, Im sure you will agree when I say non-spring floor is more difficult to tumble on, not to mention if you bust your tumbling pass, or drop your flyer straight to the ground, you hopes of finishing that routine are slim to none. However, on a Spring Floor, if tragedy does strike, the tick tocks drop off the top, or you just dont manage to set enough in that double full, your gonna hit. and youre going to hit hard, but since you bounce on that competition mat, expecially cheersport, you will have no problem getting up. Also, non spring floor is harder on your joints, and its less forgiving, way less.
Alright im done.
Goodnight Fierce-ies!

 

[chyeeaaa69]

Jim Lord posted a pie chart to his Facebook wall about cheer injuries compared to football. I tried to post it but can't figure it out from my phone.

It says catastrophic injuries from hs and college cheer is 3 in 2010 compared to 42 from football. My question is are we ok with 3 kids not being able to walk anymore bc they were cheering on the sideline for their team. Was their any injuries this serious from All Star gyms in 2010??

Last question which is off that subject. Does anyone else feel like 1 3/8 inch foam isn't much softer than a basketball court when falling from 10 feet high??

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I would say that the foam mat does feel a lot better than the basketball court. Generally, high school gyms are hardwood on top of concrete, the hardwood is not going to absorb the impact of your fall, and it's basically like falling on concrete. The mat is there to do that. It doesn't do a whole lot, but it does help a bit, and in my experience, has accounted for far less severe injuries.
On my high school team, we were practicing a stunt, and a girl fell from fully extended flat on her back and her head smashed against the ground. She was knocked unconscious momentarily, and suffered a concussion. Almost the same thing happened a year later (not to her) but there were mats on the floor, and the impact was much less. Now I understand everyone's body is different, and circumstances may be different, but they were very similar falls, and I think the mat helped a lot.
I'd consider her lucky, my high school installed something under the hardwood to absorb shock or something that makes it softer to land on, so it wasn't completely like hitting concrete, but very similar.

 

[King]

I would say that the foam mat does feel a lot better than the basketball court. Generally, high school gyms are hardwood on top of concrete, the hardwood is not going to absorb the impact of your fall, and it's basically like falling on concrete. The mat is there to do that. It doesn't do a whole lot, but it does help a bit, and in my experience, has accounted for far less severe injuries.
On my high school team, we were practicing a stunt, and a girl fell from fully extended flat on her back and her head smashed against the ground. She was knocked unconscious momentarily, and suffered a concussion. Almost the same thing happened a year later (not to her) but there were mats on the floor, and the impact was much less. Now I understand everyone's body is different, and circumstances may be different, but they were very similar falls, and I think the mat helped a lot.
I'd consider her lucky, my high school installed something under the hardwood to absorb shock or something that makes it softer to land on, so it wasn't completely like hitting concrete, but very similar.

Hard mat is definitely better than straight basketball court.

So as the surface is able to absorb more impact: Basketball Court > Hard Mat > Spring Floor
Teams should be allowed to do hard skills: Handsprings > Back Tucks > Standing Fulls

 

[yojaehs]

I am in no way supporting anything being done on flat mat (other than stretching) but what are the upper level high school/college teams doing to prevent these injuries? Are they happening as often ( I assume less bc of better coaching ) however I'm sure they occur but are things being done to limit them? When I coached college, we spent as little time as possible on flat mat but its impossible to avoid all together. I just wanna know IF upper level high school and college teams SUPPORT flat mat?

 

[CGAcheer]

if you smack your head on concrete there will most likely be blood, if you smack your head with the same force on a mat, you will probably still have the same concussion but at least you won't have a cracked skull too.

so, super informal non scientific study I did at the gym to see which surfaces were the most bouncy- I would jump up, stay stiff and see how many times I bounced off of it till I stopped.

Tumble Trak - 7
Air Floor - 6
Rod Floor - 5
Air Floor with a Panel mat on top - 4
Spring Floor - 3
School cheer floor - 2
concrete - 1

 

[INeverStopCheering]

I'm most interested in shock absorption. I don't even know how you measure that. But if a cheerleaders is falling from a basket with 1000 pounds of force, what's going to absorb more of the impact? I'm thinking the floor that has the ability to give a little than a dead mat. I agree with a system of levels. Hard floor=BHS, one leg extensions and straight cradles, no tosses. You can add more skills as you add more mats.

 

[King]

if you smack your head on concrete there will most likely be blood, if you smack your head with the same force on a mat, you will probably still have the same concussion but at least you won't have a cracked skull too.

so, super informal non scientific study I did at the gym to see which surfaces were the most bouncy- I would jump up, stay stiff and see how many times I bounced off of it till I stopped.

Tumble Trak - 7
Air Floor - 6
Rod Floor - 5
Air Floor with a Panel mat on top - 4
Spring Floor - 3
School cheer floor - 2
concrete - 1

How will you most likely have the same concussion? I have experienced 3 of the 5 grades of concussions, unfortunately. I would say your impact on a cement surface would create a much higher grade concussion.

 

[King]

And re-reading the grades of concussion again I can say 4 of the 5 grades of concussions. I had a loss of conscience that lasted a couple seconds. That was fun.

 

[Cheer_Explosion_Coach]

How will you most likely have the same concussion? I have experienced 3 of the 5 grades of concussions, unfortunately. I would say your impact on a cement surface would create a much higher grade concussion.

I'm thinking unless you dropped someone on their head on concrete and then again on their head on a 2" foam mat, we will never really know if the concussion would be the exact same. Any volunteers?

 

[King]

That's not quite true. Hard floor absorbs impact. Cement does not. You have a higher risk of a higher grade concussion on cement. Remember there is physics that proves this.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I'm most interested in shock absorption. I don't even know how you measure that. But if a cheerleaders is falling from a basket with 1000 pounds of force, what's going to absorb more of the impact? I'm thinking the floor that has the ability to give a little than a dead mat. I agree with a system of levels. Hard floor=BHS, one leg extensions and straight cradles, no tosses. You can add more skills as you add more mats.

You can't go with shock absorption alone. If you want skills to be performed the surface has to be solid enough to make that feasible.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I'm thinking unless you dropped someone on their head on concrete and then again on their head on a 2" foam mat, we will never really know if the concussion would be the exact same. Any volunteers?

I can think of several people that I would volunteer.