All-Star I Want You To Tear Apart This Idea And Find Every Hole You Can Find

[King]

I know in gymnastics each routine has a pre-determined difficulty score and then if the judges don't think the routine actually had the right elements in it to get that difficulty score they adjust the top range from 10.0 to whatever they believe the routine should be scored out of. Is this basically what you're wanting to do with cheer?

Kinda. As good as judges are I do not think they can accurately determine how difficult a routine is live with one performance. They can determine with a decent accuracy howe well it was executed and high accuracy how well it was performed and how creative it is. So, eliminate the one part judges do not do well live (not because they aren't good but because it's just not feasibly possible) and let them do what they do well live. The rest be more objective and accurate.

 

[BlueCat]

I think if you say you have 12 doubles and only 9 go, and you are already at half + 1 or not even at half +1 it really shouldn't affect the difficulty all that much.. BUT if you say you have 12 and your last pass is the ONLY double... that is a big issue, especially w/ a video playback.

A coach should be able to get this w/in minutes of their performance to "dispute"...

Then again... seriously you want to even give a coach a chance to dispute, they will dispute everything...

I don't think that disputes would be necessary - particularly if skills are listed in the order that they are performed during the routine.

I DO think that there would need to be a last minute ability to amend the list slightly. ("We are taking out 1 of the full-ups so there are now only 5 instead of 6, etc") I also do NOT think that the penalty for going "off script" should be as high as actually busting the skill. It should still be a smart decision for an athlete to pull out of a skill rather than risk injury in an unusual situation that could arise in a routine. (Girl falls in front of tumbler, feet clip in toe back, etc.)

To go along with this, we need to list out the relative difficulty of each of the major skills and provide a "score" or category for each element. This could be reviewed annually (eventually less often) for accuracy/completeness. This will not be as easy as it sounds to create.

 

[BlueCat]

Kinda. As good as judges are I do not think they can accurately determine how difficult a routine is live with one performance. They can determine with a decent accuracy howe well it was executed and high accuracy how well it was performed and how creative it is. So, eliminate the one part judges do not do well live (not because they aren't good but because it's just not feasibly possible) and let them do what they do well live. The rest be more objective and accurate.

I agree that it is nearly impossible for someone to accurately judge the relative difficulty of an elite team with a single viewing.

Another point - a routine script (?needs a better name?) could also be beneficial to the other judges in general as a reference for giving critique or during later discussions. It could be used for other things besides simply the difficulty judge's use.

 

[SparkleSpankies]

I DO think that there would need to be a last minute ability to amend the list slightly. ("We are taking out 1 of the full-ups so there are now only 5 instead of 6, etc") I also do NOT think that the penalty for going "off script" should be as high as actually busting the skill. It should still be a smart decision for an athlete to pull out of a skill rather than risk injury in an unusual situation that could arise in a routine. (Girl falls in front of tumbler, feet clip in toe back, etc.)

Good Idea... I wasn't 100% getting the idea to my head, but yes, agree... the ability to actually dispute could cause issues.

 

[WyldWon]

I suggested this 2 seasons ago...our gym owner also coached a" Competitive Cheer "college team....one evening she was "valuing " her routine as we were chatting on the phone...I asked her why doesn't all stars do this, it would make it so much easier for judges to score execution without having to be counting skills. I did make a suggestion on this board then but didn't get any feedback...I think it an awesome idea.

 

[SarahS]

I DO think that there would need to be a last minute ability to amend the list slightly. ("We are taking out 1 of the full-ups so there are now only 5 instead of 6, etc") I also do NOT think that the penalty for going "off script" should be as high as actually busting the skill. It should still be a smart decision for an athlete to pull out of a skill rather than risk injury in an unusual situation that could arise in a routine. (Girl falls in front of tumbler, feet clip in toe back, etc.)

What if a coach was also able to tell the judges immediately after the routine if a skill wasn't performed as on the list (ie, only 15 toe-backs went instead of the listed 16) - that wouldn't penalize teams who legitimately had skills that diverged from the list.

 

[MomNBlue&Green]

What if I turn in a list that says we have 18 kids competing doubles but over half of those don't get all the way around? (Something I noticed quite frequently this past weekend) Does that team get credit for doubles and you just take off of their execution score? Or does an incomplete double not count as a double at all??

I also noticed the same thing this weekend at NCA. There was one team in particular that everyone was raving about on the boards as well as twitter but I counted at least 7 doubles that did not make it all the way around. Is there a reason this is not reflected on the scores?

 

[Deleted member 15]

I also noticed the same thing this weekend at NCA. There was one team in particular that everyone was raving about on the boards as well as twitter but I counted at least 7 doubles that did not make it all the way around. Is there a reason this is not reflected on the scores?

How would you know if it was or wasn't?

 

[BowsnBling]

I like this . In gym and diving you always have a start value. Personally I think the only way this could work is if the USASF or one governing body was in charge of giving the difficulty score so it did not vary. Also, would you need to send a video in for each competition or would it be you were locked in from the beginning of the season?

I think that this would be a great start of going in the correct direction. I also think it would make the athletes more responsible for throwing skills. Personally I think once the video is scored if you alter the routine you should get a penalty. JMO.

 

[gymcatmomx2]

I might be completely off base about this but I've always wondered if all-star judging can use some of the elements of figure skating. There would be a compulsory performance that every team has to perform that would consist of standing tumbling and running tumbing. They could be judged on that between warm-ups and performances and those scores would then be combined with the overall performance scores. Another thought (and please don't chastise me), instead of wearing unis that have the gyms names and colors, have the athletes wear non-descriptive generic unis. This would eliminate the complaints that some teams win because of the name on their uniforms. Just throwing this out there

 

[Num1Stunta]

I suggested this 2 seasons ago...our gym owner also coached a" Competitive Cheer "college team....one evening she was "valuing " her routine as we were chatting on the phone...I asked her why doesn't all stars do this, it would make it so much easier for judges to score execution without having to be counting skills. I did make a suggestion on this board then but didn't get any feedback...I think it an awesome idea.

Took the words right out of my mouth! I was just about to post that I seem to remember NCA when I was in college had some sort of a skill rubric. Cheersport has something like that, as well.

 

[NoOneSpecial]

I assume There would be an allowance for a revised skill script between day 1 and 2. Perfect example would be SE day 1 to day 2 adding in an extra jump, basket and change in stunt sequence to increase there difficulty.

 

[King]

I assume There would be an allowance for a revised skill script between day 1 and 2. Perfect example would be SE day 1 to day 2 adding in an extra jump, basket and change in stunt sequence to increase there difficulty.

You would have to make the judges aware from day 1 to day 2 of any changes. If you didn't your accuracy score could suffer AND you would get the added difficulty.

 

[kkinsley]

After two evening spent doing acrobatic gymnastic tariff sheets for this weekends competition I neat cried when I thought of having to then start doing them for cheer. However I can certainly see the benefits of it as a gymnastics judge I really pity cheer judges who have to get the quantity scored right while watching live, I sure couldn't do it.
In gym we are allowed to make one change to our tariff sheets without penalty before the end of a particular sessions warm up, any further changes result in a deduction.
I also feel that this might mean more teams actually go out on the mat with skills they can hit rather than having to pray it works which seems to be happening more often from some recent competitions I have seen. It also places the onus back onto the coaches to ensure those doubles really are doubles not just 1.5's with a hop at the end.
It would also free up execution judges to truly focus on how well all skills are performed.
So even after my few days of hell with the FIG code of points I'd back it.

 

[WyldWon]

I think this should be used as a guideline and not so literal...judges still need to do their job and make sure skills are performed, it would just makes things easier for them.