All-Star At What Point Is The Gym Owner Responsible?

Just-a-Mom · Dec 1, 2012

So we've had a lot of talk about these incidents involving coaches and minors. And a lot of talk has come up about the owners' responsibilities in these incidents (is it their job to tell the authorities? is it their job to tell parents? at what point should the person be fired? etc.)

One of them just happened this spring, and wasn't really even discussed on the boards (at least not that I saw; maybe a casual mention, but I didn't see any lengthy threads). Again, it was here in good old Illinios :rolleyes:

:

Tougher bond conditions for coach charged with sexual exploitation - Chicago Tribune
Niles North cheerleader coach charged with sexual exploitation of child - Chicago Tribune

My understanding is that CIA hasn't addressed this at all, I guess because it involved his high school team and not CIA. (I don't have any connection to them at all, so someone who does can feel free to correct me; I'm only going on what people I know there have told me)

When the first incident at ICC happened, it was one of the owners! Then right when we moved to Illinois, we were all set to start at ICC...and blam! no more gym, the same weekend we were set to start. Why? The other owner had the same charges against him.

Now with the PBL issue, I'm left wondering:

1. If the owners are made aware of an incident, how much responsibility do they have for follow through? Do you think they are obligated to report it to the authorities if the only proof they have is someone telling them? Are they obligated to tell other parents in the gym?
2. If there is an arrest regarding something that happened outside of the gym, with other kids not from the gym, do you feel like the owners should still terminate that coach's employment? If so, should they tell the parents why the coach was terminated?
3. What if it is the gym owner? If you saw something and you were not the child or the parent directly involved, would you tell the authorities? A coach? No one?

I'm just curious where we as (hopefully) innocent bystanders in all this should/would step in. A lot of the comments on those PBL articles indicate that many people (including parents, other athletes and coaches, and the gym owners) were aware of the situation way before anything was done. Regardless of whether that's true, it made me wonder at what point would I step up and say/do something? I don't think I could just sit back and watch someone's kid get abused just because it wasn't my kid. I know this happens in all children's activities, not just cheer, so you don't have to be specific to that. Just curious what you would do if you were made aware of a similar situation...and what would you expect your gym's owners to do?

Just-a-Mom · Dec 1, 2012

Oh, and if you're an athlete:

When (and to whom) would you say something if it was your friend? And my BIG question is how would you feel if someone "outed" a coach for abuse and that coach was one of your best? Would you feel like they were ruining your chances (in Worlds, other competitions, etc. In other words, if you felt like you neeeeeeeded this coach, would you be mad at the person for turning him/her in?) In this Palm Beach thing, the girl said she didn't want to affect her team's chances of going to Worlds. After reading the comments on the article, I see why she was worried - if the kids learn from their parents, I can only imagine how she was treated after this.

CoachTamara · Dec 1, 2012

Just-a-Mom said:
Now with the PBL issue, I'm left wondering:

1. If the owners are made aware of an incident, how much responsibility do they have for follow through? Do you think they are obligated to report it to the authorities if the only proof they have is someone telling them? Are they obligated to tell other parents in the gym?
2. If there is an arrest regarding something that happened outside of the gym, with other kids not from the gym, do you feel like the owners should still terminate that coach's employment? If so, should they tell the parents why the coach was terminated?
3. What if it is the gym owner? If you saw something and you were not the child or the parent directly involved, would you tell the authorities? A coach? No one?

1. They have TONS of responsibility to follow through! As an owner, if there were even one incident that coach would be gone. Call me crazy, but it's my business and no employee is going to ruin that for me. If it is hearsay, then the person it involves needs to be confronted and asked about it. I wouldn't report on hearsay, but I would if the kid or parent said something happened, even if they didn't want to, I would report it.
2. Yes, still terminated. Children are children, and if you are inappropriate with ANY child you are not safe to be around my kids. Telling parents would probably have to happen, because I would be so mad if I were in the dark as a parent.
3. This is tricky. If I wasn't the parent or child, I would probably try and bring it up to them. I don't think you can report on a "hunch" but I think it needs to be addressed. If I'm uncomfortable, there is probably something not right and honestly, if I were a parent I would be looking around. There are plenty of gyms that wouldn't have me wondering, and I would feel safer going to them than something not sitting right with me.

I'm going to be honest-I am always hesitant to hire a male coach. I go out of my way to ensure that male coaches are always there when I am there, and all privates are when teams and other practices are going on so I can keep an eye out. I have full trust in them, but I don't always trust the kids or parents if I don't know them. I am covering my butt no matter what.

TheUltimateFan · Dec 1, 2012

In Illinois I believe anyone who can be deemed a 'caregiver' for children is legally obligated to report any instances of suspected abuse to the authorities, including sexual abuse. I'm no lawyer, but in my opinion there is a gray area where it could be stated that they are responsible for the welfare of minors and are therefore a caregiver?

Regardless, I can't imagine not feeling morally obligated to report something like this to police. And it is beyond my comprehension as a parent to think someone might be aware of something endangering my child and not tell me. Unfortunately, it happens all of the time. Which puts it right back on us to be forever alert to the danger.

Just-a-Mom · Dec 1, 2012

CoachTamara said:
1. They have TONS of responsibility to follow through! As an owner, if there were even one incident that coach would be gone. Call me crazy, but it's my business and no employee is going to ruin that for me. If it is hearsay, then the person it involves needs to be confronted and asked about it. I wouldn't report on hearsay, but I would if the kid or parent said something happened, even if they didn't want to, I would report it.
2. Yes, still terminated. Children are children, and if you are inappropriate with ANY child you are not safe to be around my kids. Telling parents would probably have to happen, because I would be so mad if I were in the dark as a parent.
3. This is tricky. If I wasn't the parent or child, I would probably try and bring it up to them. I don't think you can report on a "hunch" but I think it needs to be addressed. If I'm uncomfortable, there is probably something not right and honestly, if I were a parent I would be looking around. There are plenty of gyms that wouldn't have me wondering, and I would feel safer going to them than something not sitting right with me.

I'm going to be honest-I am always hesitant to hire a male coach. I go out of my way to ensure that male coaches are always there when I am there, and all privates are when teams and other practices are going on so I can keep an eye out. I have full trust in them, but I don't always trust the kids or parents if I don't know them. I am covering my butt no matter what.

I agree with all of this! I thought No. 2 was a no-brainer, but given what I've seen over the last few years, I guess not. And as for the last one, if it was the owner, I think I'd take my kids to another gym. But I might confront the owner before I left and just say "I don't know what's going on, and I can't prove anything, but what I see is inappropriate enough. If you're working with kids, you ought to think your actions through a little more carefully. At some point this is all going to blow up." (Just so they'd know that someone knows.) I'm not sure if I'd tell anyone else or not - I think it would just depend on what/how much I knew vs. what I thought. If I knew anything as fact, I'd tell the parents of the child in question for sure, and possibly the authorities if the parents didn't. I don't think I could just allow it to continue.

TheUltimateFan · Dec 1, 2012

I don't know if this rule still exists (maybe one of our UA moms can update us) but I know Craig used to have a rule that athletes were never allowed to ride in a car with coaches, even driving to and from competitions. If caught, the coach would be fired. At first I was upset because it 'inconvenienced' me in one situation, until I realized I was being a complete idiot...those are the kinds of rules that help keep my child safe. We need more controls like this....and owners willing to stand behind the punishment.

Just-a-Mom · Dec 1, 2012

TheUltimateFan said:
I don't know if this rule still exists (maybe one of our UA moms can update us) but I know Craig used to have a rule that athletes were never allowed to ride in a car with coaches, even driving to and from competitions. If caught, the coach would be fired. At first I was upset because it 'inconvenienced' me in one situation, until I realized I was being a complete idiot...those are the kinds of rules that help keep my child safe. We need more controls like this....and owners willing to stand behind the punishment.

I like that rule - I see how it could inconvenience people, because I know a lot of coaches do this, but it really is in everyone's best interests.

When we were at our old gym, my cp was taking a private on a Sunday, when the gym was closed. I got there and her coach said "I know you usually leave to shop or whatever, but since the gym is closed and it's just me in here, you have to stay the whole time. No offense to you, but I will never put myself in a situation that could be questioned." I wasn't planning on going anywhere that day, but I loved him for being responsible enough at such a young age (21) to see that he needed to take extra care to make sure not only that he wasn't doing anything wrong, but also to make sure that he wasn't doing anything that could even ever look wrong.

TheUltimateFan · Dec 1, 2012

Just-a-Mom said:
I like that rule - I see how it could inconvenience people, because I know a lot of coaches do this, but it really is in everyone's best interests.

When we were at our old gym, my cp was taking a private on a Sunday, when the gym was closed. I got there and her coach said "I know you usually leave to shop or whatever, but since the gym is closed and it's just me in here, you have to stay the whole time. No offense to you, but I will never put myself in a situation that could be questioned." I wasn't planning on going anywhere that day, but I loved him for being responsible enough at such a young age (21) to see that he needed to take extra care to make sure not only that he wasn't doing anything wrong, but also to make sure that he wasn't doing anything that could even ever look wrong.

You may not be old enough to remember, but one of the first highly publicized incidents like this was a coach at a gymnastics facility in Streamwood who ended up in prison for molesting young gymnasts. A significant number of the reported incidents happened during 'privates', when too few people were around to keep an eye on things. Now there are video cameras everywhere in that facility. Another smart investment for gym owners.

kristenthegreat · Dec 1, 2012

Just-a-Mom said:
1. If the owners are made aware of an incident, how much responsibility do they have for follow through? Do you think they are obligated to report it to the authorities if the only proof they have is someone telling them? Are they obligated to tell other parents in the gym?
2. If there is an arrest regarding something that happened outside of the gym, with other kids not from the gym, do you feel like the owners should still terminate that coach's employment? If so, should they tell the parents why the coach was terminated?
3. What if it is the gym owner? If you saw something and you were not the child or the parent directly involved, would you tell the authorities? A coach? No one?

Funny, only one of the articles mentioned he worked at CIA- was he a coach? Occasional tumbling instructor?
1. Owners have all the responsibility of follow through in the WORLD. Not only from the very obvious moral and ethical responsibility, but having to explain to parents that you knew of an incident and did NOTHING. Even if it's just hearsay, I'd say something to the authorities. I don't necessarily think they're obligated to tell other parents until it's proven or delved into further, but I'd definitely think they should talk to the coach as well. I wouldn't want a huge to-do without facts (as hearsay is what ruined my favorite teacher's life), but I wouldn't want to do NOTHING and have someone continue to be hurt.
2. Absolutely. Even if it's 'just a temporary basis', I wouldn't risk my kids. Particularly if there's hardcore evidence. Granted, there usually isn't (unless its texting or other things).
3. If it's the gym owner and I'm not directly involved, I'm still letting somebody know. Authorities, absolutely. Also a coach. Whether or not they want to press charges is their business, but somebody HAS to know- especially when it's an owner. That much encompassing control over the lives of kids? Absolutely.

CheerBank · Dec 1, 2012

I also think there's a small wall of silence amongst gym owners and coaches - if they know that someone on their staff behaved inappropriately and was let go for it, even if charges were not pressed, shouldn't they share these concerns with other gym owners in the area so they are aware of the allegations? I'd rather see the reputation of a coach tarnished even if they are innocent than see another child suffer because it was true and no one said anything. I feel too often that owners/coaches are too willing to let something become someone else's problem rather than joining together as a cheer community and protecting the kids we entrust with them. I know that a coach at our old gym was let go because of unproven concerns, yet he is still coaching and working with kids.

SharkDad · Dec 1, 2012

Just want to comment on the title of the thread: The gym owner is ALWAYS responsible. That's the way all businesses are.

This is why I refuse to call All Star an industry. All Star is a YOUTH SPORT. The businesses in the industry that support it are all responsible for doing everything in their power to ensure the safety of the youth. This is demanded in all other youth sports and any other businesses that deal with minors.

As parents it is our responsibility to only deal with businesses that are doing that or take our money elsewhere.

cheermomforever · Dec 1, 2012

Any adult who witnesses ANY inappropriate behavior, whether small or large, happening with a minor is obligated to report it!!! If they do not then they should be held responsible if it happens again involving the same person. I would hope any adult, especially a coach or possibly another minor, would do so. If a coach hides something then they should not be coaching anywhere,

Just-a-Mom · Dec 1, 2012

kristenthegreat said:
Funny, only one of the articles mentioned he worked at CIA- was he a coach? Occasional tumbling instructor?
1. Owners have all the responsibility of follow through in the WORLD. Not only from the very obvious moral and ethical responsibility, but having to explain to parents that you knew of an incident and did NOTHING. Even if it's just hearsay, I'd say something to the authorities. I don't necessarily think they're obligated to tell other parents until it's proven or delved into further, but I'd definitely think they should talk to the coach as well. I wouldn't want a huge to-do without facts (as hearsay is what ruined my favorite teacher's life), but I wouldn't want to do NOTHING and have someone continue to be hurt.
2. Absolutely. Even if it's 'just a temporary basis', I wouldn't risk my kids. Particularly if there's hardcore evidence. Granted, there usually isn't (unless its texting or other things).
3. If it's the gym owner and I'm not directly involved, I'm still letting somebody know. Authorities, absolutely. Also a coach. Whether or not they want to press charges is their business, but somebody HAS to know- especially when it's an owner. That much encompassing control over the lives of kids? Absolutely.

My understanding is that he was a co-owner? I can't find any info on it, that's just what I was told. I know for sure he was coaching there. I was told he was co-owner but sold his part to the other owner after this incident. I don't know if he still works there or not - he's not listed on their website, but that means nothing to me.

I'm a big fan of telling authorities. My cp was almost involved in an incident when she was 5 (thank God for a vigilant babysitter who spotted this creep and told me) and I went to the police with no facts at all, just a story from a babysitter. They followed up anyway, and they told me "When someone thinks something is going on, our experience is that almost always there is something going on. Your gut feelings are more accurate than most people realize."

Turned out this guy was suuuuuuper creep (he had pictures of my cp and other kids in his home. I didn't even know him - he was the maintenance man in my apartment place and had used his keys to go in my home and copy the pictures. He was waiting at her bus stop and told the babysitter that I had asked him to pick up cp instead. Thank God the babysitter was a good one and told him to kick rocks) So it was good they followed up, but even if he hadn't been creep of the century, I'm glad I told. They didn't make a huge production of the follow-up and if he'd been innocent then there would have been no harm done. No one even knew anything had happened until it all blew up. For the record, the rental office did not fire him. We had to move to get away from him. They said what he did in his "off time" wasn't their responsibility - even though it was his employment by them that gave him access to my child. :confused:

(Kinda like some of those comments on the Palm Beach Lightning articles...)

(I think lies are different. Liars generally have also cooked up some "proof" and they can destroy innocent people's lives. I don't know how to prevent that.

My story was more of a "I don't know anything for sure, but you guys have more resources than I do. Can you look into this before someone's kid gets kidnapped?")

Carrie · Dec 1, 2012

Two words: Penn State

Everyone in the Penn State administration and athletic department should held accountable from the moment they knew what was happening.

Gym owners are totally accountable and have the burden of "full disclosure" the minute they know of any type of situation involving the physical safety of a child. You get the glory you have to have the guts!

purpleblue&white · Dec 1, 2012

TheUltimateFan said:
I don't know if this rule still exists (maybe one of our UA moms can update us) but I know Craig used to have a rule that athletes were never allowed to ride in a car with coaches, even driving to and from competitions. If caught, the coach would be fired. At first I was upset because it 'inconvenienced' me in one situation, until I realized I was being a complete idiot...those are the kinds of rules that help keep my child safe. We need more controls like this....and owners willing to stand behind the punishment.

I know no athletes are allowed in the coaches office period. There is a sign on the front door. If a meeting needs to happen, it is usually takes place in Craig or Michelle's office with one of them or another adult present.

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