All-Star Are There Any Individual Parts Of Allstar Cheer?

[King]

Making this a tangent thread from an earlier one:

There were comments that building (stunting, pyramids, and baskets) were the only team based parts of cheerleading. Having coached this for 6 years now the whole idea struck me as kinda odd. I have yet to think of one particular part of any section where I had a team win because of just one person.

Though I can think of multiple occasions where a team lost because of an individual. Winning in cheer is about having every athlete do their job to the best of their ability.

Have I had some individuals contribute more than others? Of course. In tumbling you will have your last pass, in jumps you will have your point, in dance you will have your point, in baskets you might have your highlight basket, and in stunts you might have your highlight stunts. But in all those situations it is not as if the rest of the team goes away and no longer matters. If your second to last pass busts, if your center right stunt drops, if your center left basket does an incomplete twist, if your one off dancer forgets ALL her moves, you lose as much as if the 'highlight' skill busted.

So, I ask, why do people think there are individual parts of cheer? Is it because you can practice tumbling and jumping to 'get' the skill without others? Of course 'getting' the skill is no where near the same as performing it on the floor with others in perfect sync. Anyone have comments or thoughts?

 

[kristenthegreat]

I can consider tumbling and jumps an individual part, because each individual person works their part individually to be a part of a whole. Unlike stunting where each individual part/person ONLY works together..you could have one person do a jump front-and-center, you can have a person with a highlight pass, etc. Although those parts come TOGETHER in some instances (synced tumbling being a part of the scoresheet at worlds was a deciding factor that MANY people ignored to their detriment as we all know), when we're comparing routines and counting passes, don't we meticulously described each singles pass, standing or running? Don't we single out someone with ridiculous jumps and that fierce girl/guy working the dance? We may say 'Oh, Rays has really nice synced jumps- did you see Haileys? They're BEAUTIFUL!'

Another way to look at it: In stunting/baskets/pyramid, if one person screws up, it affects a (stunt) group's ability as WELL as the team. If a person busts their triple toe back, it only affects that one person, and then the team. Am I making sense?

 

[King]

I can consider tumbling and jumps an individual part, because each individual person works their part individually to be a part of a whole. Unlike stunting where each individual part/person ONLY works together..you could have one person do a jump front-and-center, you can have a person with a highlight pass, etc. Although those parts come TOGETHER in some instances (synced tumbling being a part of the scoresheet at worlds was a deciding factor that MANY people ignored to their detriment as we all know), when we're comparing routines and counting passes, don't we meticulously described each singles pass, standing or running? Don't we single out someone with ridiculous jumps and that fierce girl/guy working the dance? We may say 'Oh, Rays has really nice synced jumps- did you see Haileys? They're BEAUTIFUL!'

Another way to look at it: In stunting/baskets/pyramid, if one person screws up, it affects a (stunt) group's ability as WELL as the team. If a person busts their triple toe back, it only affects that one person, and then the team. Am I making sense?

From the way you described it: To execute the skill itself takes one person, therefor it is more individualistic.

But the sum is worth more than the parts. As a counter point when Maddie did her 'highlight' stunt two years ago and everyone went nuts was that a team part? 4 people competed a skill... how is that different and more team based then having squad jumps? Yes there is a point person who runs it for pretty much all skills, but if the back row doesnt fullup and teh back row doesnt back tuck in jumps how are those two pieces different?

 

[King]

sorry to keep throwing out stuff at ya, but @kristenthegreat
can you show me a team that has won in the past 5 years (I consider the modern age of cheer) because of an individual?

 

[tucknduck]

As far as "team" goes, it's only as strong as it's weakest link. A so-called star of the team will have far less impact on their team winning than the weakest link causing the team to lose. All parts must work together and every teammate has to hit their routine to the team to be successful. One standout tumbler and the rest good to above average tumbling won't beat a team of great tumblers.

Therefore, cheerleading success is far more team oriented than it being about individual ability since all athletes are supposed to have the same minimum skill set in each level. What seperates a champion and an also-ran is how well the athletes perform as a team.

 

[Justacoach]

I think you're right @kingston. I think tumbling and jumps are considered individual skills because they can be practiced and improved individually and many parents push theirs kids' individual tumbling skills so they can be on a so-called "better" team. My personal favorite scenario to watch is the parent who pushed and pushed all summer for their kid to "move up" and once they did they struggled to hit the pass on time in the routine - it gets taken out and they become a chicken nugget in the back. Meanwhile, the kid with the same borderline skills stayed behind, was the star and the whole team had a much better season. Then that kid will really be ready the next year when the first is no where closer due to not throwing the skills because they couldn't hit - IN THE ROUTINE

 

[Deleted member 8658]

i agree with you 100%
your WHOLE ENTIRE team is what puts you in first, however, i cant say the whole team puts you in last i have had girls on the team b4 who have purpusely not given 100% because of cetian things i cant say.
but no matter were you are in the routine doesnt make a difference because if a stunt fall its a deduction.
i feel like the reason coaches put people in the front is because they really stand out and try that extra amount AND know how to work the crowd, however, this person is no more important then ANYONE else on that team, everyone is a very important contribution.

 

[King]

As far as "team" goes, it's only as strong as it's weakest link. A so-called star of the team will have far less impact on their team winning than the weakest link causing the team to lose. All parts must work together and every teammate has to hit their routine to the team to be successful. One standout tumbler and the rest good to above average tumbling won't beat a team of great tumblers.

Therefore, cheerleading success is far more team oriented than it being about individual ability since all athletes are supposed to have the same minimum skill set in each level. What seperates a champion and an also-ran is how well the athletes perform as a team.

Hello well thought out answer. I enjoy when you come around.

 

[King]

As cheerleading can only be won by a team, then it does no matter the individuals contribution for themselves, but how they contribute in the 'sum of the parts' of the end product. A jump itself does only require one person, and a stunt itself only requires two. But by the nature of our sport that does not mean the jumps and tumbling are any less team based BECAUSE they must be performed with their teammates to win.

 

[tucknduck]

The only time I can think of when it can be about the individual are those tournaments that offer a seperate invidual tumbling competition.

 

[newcheerdad]

As cheerleading can only be won by a team, then it does no matter the individuals contribution for themselves, but how they contribute in the 'sum of the parts' of the end product. A jump itself does only require one person, and a stunt itself only requires two. But by the nature of our sport that does not mean the jumps and tumbling are any less team based BECAUSE they must be performed with their teammates to win.

I would argue that cheer is perhaps the least "individualistic" team sport I've ever seen. You can have a great individual player take over a soccer or basketball game and elevate a mediocre team, but a great individual cheerleader does little to elevate a mediocre squad.

 

[kristenthegreat]

From the way you described it: To execute the skill itself takes one person, therefor it is more individualistic.

But the sum is worth more than the parts. As a counter point when Maddie did her 'highlight' stunt two years ago and everyone went nuts was that a team part? 4 people competed a skill... how is that different and more team based then having squad jumps? Yes there is a point person who runs it for pretty much all skills, but if the back row doesnt fullup and teh back row doesnt back tuck in jumps how are those two pieces different?

I think the difference is you're considering it more in terms of competition, whereas I'm factoring the improvement in individual ability. I can't find a team who won solely by one individual (mainly for the obvious fact that I don't have access to score breakdowns or sheets), BUT I will part-counter with this: If you have two identical teams side by side, but ONE girl on Team A throws a better executed pass than a girl throwing that same pass on Team B, wouldn't you say it's that girls individual ability that helped her team? (Again, I can only speak in hypothetical because I don't know if it's ever turned out that way exactly and I wouldn't have score sheets to back it up even if it did. I'm also not perfectly clear on my score sheets for each individual competition). I am agreeing with you that the sum is worth more than the parts- without question. But can a few individuals make a boost? I'd say so..isn't there one score sheet where one person could tumble back and forth 20 times and it'd make team majority? (Or am I hallucinating?)

To counter: what's the point of paying for tumbling classes if the point is to strictly be used in team majority? Why throw an individual pass at all if it does nothing to improve scoring (assuming it does on the sheet)? Should tumbling only take into account base majority and that's that? If I were a parent, I'd wonder what's the point of going into higher tumbling if it didn't really do much to help..why risk the injury?

[Disclaimer: I am operating on 3 1/2 hours of sleep. If I am talking in circles/talking myself into a corner- I apologize. I swear it makes sense in my head ]

 

[King]

I think the difference is you're considering it more in terms of competition, whereas I'm factoring the improvement in individual ability. I can't find a team who won solely by one individual (mainly for the obvious fact that I don't have access to score breakdowns or sheets), BUT I will part-counter with this: If you have two identical teams side by side, but ONE girl on Team A throws a better executed pass than a girl throwing that same pass on Team B, wouldn't you say it's that girls individual ability that helped her team? (Again, I can only speak in hypothetical because I don't know if it's ever turned out that way exactly and I wouldn't have score sheets to back it up even if it did. I'm also not perfectly clear on my score sheets for each individual competition). I am agreeing with you that the sum is worth more than the parts- without question. But can a few individuals make a boost? I'd say so..isn't there one score sheet where one person could tumble back and forth 20 times and it'd make team majority? (Or am I hallucinating?)

To counter: what's the point of paying for tumbling classes if the point is to strictly be used in team majority? Why throw an individual pass at all if it does nothing to improve scoring (assuming it does on the sheet)? Should tumbling only take into account base majority and that's that? If I were a parent, I'd wonder what's the point of going into higher tumbling if it didn't really do much to help..why risk the injury?

[Disclaimer: I am operating on 3 1/2 hours of sleep. If I am talking in circles/talking myself into a corner- I apologize. I swear it makes sense in my head ]

There is one scoresheet that does account for that, and it is not a good scoresheet. As for the individual helping them win, two points: 1. It is like the straw that broke the camels back. The final piece of the puzzle that pushes it over the top does not mean the accumulation of all the other pieces didn't matter. 2. You could also say that about a girls flexibility. If two routines were the EXACT same and the only difference was the point girl was hyper flexible on team A to the point of ridiculousness then did her team win because of one girls flexibility?

Now when discussing the accumulation of higher tumbling (assuming a pass that is harder than a straight double) you are discussing only the top .5% (probably less) of allstar tumblers in the country. That majority in all other divisions do large groups of tumbling and to start fitting in all the pieces one needs now I expect to see just more group synchronized tumbling (20 RO HS layouts in level 4 from the corner). For the .5% I think you are going to see a shift from last pass to last group pass. But last group pass will be extremely hard (in fact harder cause your two people will have to do it in synch). In fact I think a running tumbling requirement should be no one is allowed to tumble by themselves.

 

[kristenthegreat]

Now when discussing the accumulation of higher tumbling (assuming a pass that is harder than a straight double) you are discussing only the top .5% (probably less) of allstar tumblers in the country. That majority in all other divisions do large groups of tumbling and to start fitting in all the pieces one needs now I expect to see just more group synchronized tumbling (20 RO HS layouts in level 4 from the corner). For the .5% I think you are going to see a shift from last pass to last group pass. But last group pass will be extremely hard (in fact harder cause your two people will have to do it in synch). In fact I think a running tumbling requirement should be no one is allowed to tumble by themselves.

I was taking into account ANY level that has a 'last specialty pass' in a routine.. like a PF step forward roll ro bhs bhs bhs bhs bhs bhs tuck (or whatever is the hardest pass in a level 3 routine)..what's the point of working those if they're not going to be used? Why not just learn skills straight (ro (as many handspring as possible) tuck/layout/full/double) with maybe a whip thrown in for good measure (at the appropriate levels) if complex, individual passes don't mean anything (or not as much). If so much emphasis is to be placed in the group, why bother even throwing it in if it does nothing for max score (I'm being particularly insistent on purpose )

 

[CheerKatie08]

That majority in all other divisions do large groups of tumbling and to start fitting in all the pieces one needs now I expect to see just more group synchronized tumbling (20 RO HS layouts in level 4 from the corner). For the .5% I think you are going to see a shift from last pass to last group pass. But last group pass will be extremely hard (in fact harder cause your two people will have to do it in synch). In fact I think a running tumbling requirement should be no one is allowed to tumble by themselves.

I also think we'll be seeing a lot of front-to-back group tumbling this year as well. I sat through a V!ROC choreography for a HS team this past week and it took two counts of eight for all running tumbling to be completed. 12 RO HS tucks went to the back, and the second they cleared the middle of the mat the fulls went in a group of 4. This definitely takes the individuality out of cheerleading, as more than half of the girls who tucked to the back had layouts. Granted this is a HS team and all you need are tucks and some fulls to max out on the 5 points of running tumbling there is this year, but I think we'll definitely see some similar changes because the Varsity Allstar scoresheet is basically identical per percentage. I'd LOVE to see more tumbling a la CA Panthers this year. Also makes viewing as a spectator easier, as it's a lot harder for the untrained eye to understand why certain passes don't score higher than others.