Assistant Coach New To Cheer & Need Advice!

[theartfuldodger]

Hi everyone!

I am new to the cheerleading world, but I've been a lurker on these boards for a few months trying to absorb as much info as I can. But now I need some advice and I thought maybe those who know more about the industry can give me some perspective on some questions I have been having... Without going into to much detail (I don't want to bore anyone!), I am an assistant coach at an established dance studio that is branching into cheer by fielding a youth lv 1 team. I also work closely with the studio owner as an office admin and she has asked me to be her eyes and ears on the team. Overall, I am loving helping out with this new team. However, the coach and I have some conflicting opinions as I come from a gymnastics background and she is a former cheerleader. I can't decide if I am right to question this coach or if I should just keep my mouth shut!

First question - This is a level 1 team, so they are working on walkovers. Not all of them have the skill yet though, so for their tumbling pass she is having the girls who can't stand from fwo, land on two feet in a bridge and fall forward onto their knees and then forward roll. She says this "counts the same as a walkover." I think it might count as a fall and be a deduction. Hopefully someone here can tell me for certain?

My other question is in regards to physical preparation. She has them do static stretching for the first 15 min of class and then does 20 kicks on both legs. That's it. There is no warm up other than stretching and no other conditioning. They go straight into attempting to throw their skills (with no spotting - painful for me to watch) and then she has them do the routine full out. We did way more conditioning when I was coaching rec gymnastics and never stretched the kids cold. I think this is the main reason why their tumbling and flexibility isn't progressing, but I have no idea what is normal for cheer. From what I read on this board, it seems like other teams do way more conditioning? What is a typical practice like for other level 1 teams? The average age on the team is 8. What kind of conditioning is appropriate for this age group?

Apologies for the long post! Hopefully some of the knowledgeable people here can share their thoughts on this situation!

 

[cheerforeverever]

When you say "former cheerleader", do you mean school cheerleader or competitive all star cheerleader? Training can vary depending on the coach & environment, but the more serious gyms are going to have conditioning well established into their practices (especially as the levels go up). Just because someone cheered at one time does not mean that they know how to teach. It concerns me that she is having girls throw skills without a spot, with no drills for that skill before hand as well. It is crucial for kids to get drills perfected before having them just chunk something over, as they are likely to develop bad habits/injuries/etc. from not being either physically or mentally ready to throw the skill.

Now I will say that I have been in gyms where they do static stretching at the beginning. This was not to increase flexibility however, so much as just for the kids to get ready to warm up, focus, etc. After some basic warm ups, drills, etc., we would work on specific skills/parts of the routine (or full outs if in competition season), and then condition & stretch again(this stretching portion would be for the flexibility and strength, as the muscles are already warm). I do think that you pulling from your gymnastics & dance knowledge is on the right track when it comes to stretch/condition....... It doesn't have to be hard core 1 hr+ gymnastics conditioning, but the more that they work on core strength & flexibility, the easier it will be for them to progress properly.

As for the front walkover-fall to knees and roll, it is tough to exactly picture what the kids are doing, however it may be a judging call (is it like what the girl at the very end of the california allstars video I posted below does? if so that would not be a deduction). If it looks sloppy, they could mark it a fall. If it clearly looks like it was choreographed that way and is clean enough to tell that, then it will depend on if they perceive that as squad majority walkovers or only a few true walkovers. The judges aren't dumb, and realize if something is choreographed for reasons such as kids not being able to make it over all the way (it was actually a popular thing in lv 2 one year to have squad standing back handsprings with certain kids forward rolling out of them because they did not land correctly. Clever choreo or a clear indicator of kids not having skills?). It's a numbers game. You have to figure out how to score in the highest possible range on the score sheet but still make the routine look clean and not a bunch of fake skills. A clean team is always going to look better for overall impression than a team throwing high difficulty but low execution. Not to say that a team with high starting difficulty can't beat a cleaner team due to them having so many extra difficulty points to start with which evens out the mistakes however. In youth level 1 though, it is not uncommon to be dealing with teams that have squad backwalkovers and front walkovers. A few examples of some different established programs' youth 1:
The Stingray All Stars Large Youth Level 1 - YouTube
California All Stars Youth Mob-CheerPros 1-25-14 - YouTube
Jersey All Stars Small Youth 1 (2010-2011 season) - YouTube
Ultimate Athletics Crowns (Youth 1) - American Cheer Power 11-3-13 - YouTube

 

[Cheermom1969]

When you say "former cheerleader", do you mean school cheerleader or competitive all star cheerleader? Training can vary depending on the coach & environment, but the more serious gyms are going to have conditioning well established into their practices (especially as the levels go up). Just because someone cheered at one time does not mean that they know how to teach. It concerns me that she is having girls throw skills without a spot, with no drills for that skill before hand as well. It is crucial for kids to get drills perfected before having them just chunk something over, as they are likely to develop bad habits/injuries/etc. from not being either physically or mentally ready to throw the skill.

Now I will say that I have been in gyms where they do static stretching at the beginning. This was not to increase flexibility however, so much as just for the kids to get ready to warm up, focus, etc. After some basic warm ups, drills, etc., we would work on specific skills/parts of the routine (or full outs if in competition season), and then condition & stretch again(this stretching portion would be for the flexibility and strength, as the muscles are already warm). I do think that you pulling from your gymnastics & dance knowledge is on the right track when it comes to stretch/condition....... It doesn't have to be hard core 1 hr+ gymnastics conditioning, but the more that they work on core strength & flexibility, the easier it will be for them to progress properly.

As for the front walkover-fall to knees and roll, it is tough to exactly picture what the kids are doing, however it may be a judging call (is it like what the girl at the very end of the california allstars video I posted below does? if so that would not be a deduction). If it looks sloppy, they could mark it a fall. If it clearly looks like it was choreographed that way and is clean enough to tell that, then it will depend on if they perceive that as squad majority walkovers or only a few true walkovers. The judges aren't dumb, and realize if something is choreographed for reasons such as kids not being able to make it over all the way (it was actually a popular thing in lv 2 one year to have squad standing back handsprings with certain kids forward rolling out of them because they did not land correctly. Clever choreo or a clear indicator of kids not having skills?). It's a numbers game. You have to figure out how to score in the highest possible range on the score sheet but still make the routine look clean and not a bunch of fake skills. A clean team is always going to look better for overall impression than a team throwing high difficulty but low execution. Not to say that a team with high starting difficulty can't beat a cleaner team due to them having so many extra difficulty points to start with which evens out the mistakes however. In youth level 1 though, it is not uncommon to be dealing with teams that have squad backwalkovers and front walkovers. A few examples of some different established programs' youth 1:
The Stingray All Stars Large Youth Level 1 - YouTube
California All Stars Youth Mob-CheerPros 1-25-14 - YouTube
Jersey All Stars Small Youth 1 (2010-2011 season) - YouTube
Ultimate Athletics Crowns (Youth 1) - American Cheer Power 11-3-13 - YouTube

Off topic but Youth Mob was the team my cp was in year before last and the little blonde in the middle when they come out is my daughter's flyer this year. Love that team!

 

[theartfuldodger]

When you say "former cheerleader", do you mean school cheerleader or competitive all star cheerleader? Training can vary depending on the coach & environment, but the more serious gyms are going to have conditioning well established into their practices (especially as the levels go up). Just because someone cheered at one time does not mean that they know how to teach. It concerns me that she is having girls throw skills without a spot, with no drills for that skill before hand as well. It is crucial for kids to get drills perfected before having them just chunk something over, as they are likely to develop bad habits/injuries/etc. from not being either physically or mentally ready to throw the skill.

Now I will say that I have been in gyms where they do static stretching at the beginning. This was not to increase flexibility however, so much as just for the kids to get ready to warm up, focus, etc. After some basic warm ups, drills, etc., we would work on specific skills/parts of the routine (or full outs if in competition season), and then condition & stretch again(this stretching portion would be for the flexibility and strength, as the muscles are already warm). I do think that you pulling from your gymnastics & dance knowledge is on the right track when it comes to stretch/condition....... It doesn't have to be hard core 1 hr+ gymnastics conditioning, but the more that they work on core strength & flexibility, the easier it will be for them to progress properly.

As for the front walkover-fall to knees and roll, it is tough to exactly picture what the kids are doing, however it may be a judging call (is it like what the girl at the very end of the california allstars video I posted below does? if so that would not be a deduction). If it looks sloppy, they could mark it a fall. If it clearly looks like it was choreographed that way and is clean enough to tell that, then it will depend on if they perceive that as squad majority walkovers or only a few true walkovers. The judges aren't dumb, and realize if something is choreographed for reasons such as kids not being able to make it over all the way (it was actually a popular thing in lv 2 one year to have squad standing back handsprings with certain kids forward rolling out of them because they did not land correctly. Clever choreo or a clear indicator of kids not having skills?). It's a numbers game. You have to figure out how to score in the highest possible range on the score sheet but still make the routine look clean and not a bunch of fake skills. A clean team is always going to look better for overall impression than a team throwing high difficulty but low execution. Not to say that a team with high starting difficulty can't beat a cleaner team due to them having so many extra difficulty points to start with which evens out the mistakes however. In youth level 1 though, it is not uncommon to be dealing with teams that have squad backwalkovers and front walkovers. A few examples of some different established programs' youth 1:
The Stingray All Stars Large Youth Level 1 - YouTube
California All Stars Youth Mob-CheerPros 1-25-14 - YouTube
Jersey All Stars Small Youth 1 (2010-2011 season) - YouTube
Ultimate Athletics Crowns (Youth 1) - American Cheer Power 11-3-13 - YouTube

Thank you so much for your response. She is a former high school cheerleader and has apparently coached high school teams successfully in the past. The lack of spotting, drills, and conditioning concerns me a lot as many of these girls have no experience with tumbling or cheer whatsoever. I definitely worry they will pick up bad habits that won't get corrected and make them more prone to injury. I try to suggest different drills they could try or even just start spotting them, but she insists on them chucking the skills themselves. I thought maybe I was being overly worried about nothing as she seems pretty confident with her coaching. I just don't know if I should bring it up with her more directly or just let things play out and see what happens.

For the fwo, basically they do a front limber and instead of standing both knees bend so that they are on the floor and then they lift their torso. I watched the videos (and I've watched tons since getting involved with this) and I've never seen it done in a routine before which is why I'm skeptical. I'm wondering if the girls without walkovers should just do cartwheels and roundoffs instead which they can do beautifully. Which is better - fake walkovers or clean cartwheels? Would that vary by judge?

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Thank you so much for your response. She is a former high school cheerleader and has apparently coached high school teams successfully in the past. The lack of spotting, drills, and conditioning concerns me a lot as many of these girls have no experience with tumbling or cheer whatsoever. I definitely worry they will pick up bad habits that won't get corrected and make them more prone to injury. I try to suggest different drills they could try or even just start spotting them, but she insists on them chucking the skills themselves. I thought maybe I was being overly worried about nothing as she seems pretty confident with her coaching. I just don't know if I should bring it up with her more directly or just let things play out and see what happens.

For the fwo, basically they do a front limber and instead of standing both knees bend so that they are on the floor and then they lift their torso. I watched the videos (and I've watched tons since getting involved with this) and I've never seen it done in a routine before which is why I'm skeptical. I'm wondering if the girls without walkovers should just do cartwheels and roundoffs instead which they can do beautifully. Which is better - fake walkovers or clean cartwheels? Would that vary by judge?

Would probably vary by judge, but I'd be concerned that the fake FWO wouldn't even be counted as a tumbling skill. I think because it's not really a skill & more of a creative choreographed element, they may only count the real FWO as any type of skill.

 

[INeverStopCheering]

I agree with what was said above, the only things that "count" as skills are the actual skills. You can't fool judges into counting something. That's like saying that doing a really fast back limber could be "counted" as a BHS

 

[cheerforeverever]

Thank you so much for your response. She is a former high school cheerleader and has apparently coached high school teams successfully in the past. The lack of spotting, drills, and conditioning concerns me a lot as many of these girls have no experience with tumbling or cheer whatsoever. I definitely worry they will pick up bad habits that won't get corrected and make them more prone to injury. I try to suggest different drills they could try or even just start spotting them, but she insists on them chucking the skills themselves. I thought maybe I was being overly worried about nothing as she seems pretty confident with her coaching. I just don't know if I should bring it up with her more directly or just let things play out and see what happens.

For the fwo, basically they do a front limber and instead of standing both knees bend so that they are on the floor and then they lift their torso. I watched the videos (and I've watched tons since getting involved with this) and I've never seen it done in a routine before which is why I'm skeptical. I'm wondering if the girls without walkovers should just do cartwheels and roundoffs instead which they can do beautifully. Which is better - fake walkovers or clean cartwheels? Would that vary by judge?

High school cheerleading & competitive all star cheerleading can be VERY different in terms of training and coaching. The majority of high school teams are probably at a level 2 or 3 when compared with the levels of the allstar world, thus the training/conditioning/stretching are not quite the same (unless it is a very strong competitive school program....we're talking top 5 percent of teams here). Keep in mind that most of the time, the high school coaches are not teaching the high school team their tumbling skills from scratch. The high school girls come in with those skills or go to an allstar gym for tumbling classes usually, rather than solely a class by the school coach. They may already have cheer/gymnastics experience before making the team. It is much more difficult to build a successful team from the ground up, than get a bunch of already skilled kids and put together a successful routine. Additionally, many high school coaches are teachers or sponsors that have not had training/certification to teach actual cheer skills either. They thus teach their athletes things that may not be correct, because they do not know any better in regards to the science behind things & those practices get passed down (static stretching, "just chunk it", etc.).

It may do you both good to sit down together and go through some research of "ways to teach walkovers", "gymnastics conditioning", "basic conditioning routine", "the science behind flexibility", etc. & look into possible classes that you could perhaps take together/ credentialing? The more knowledge the better (I can tell you already believe in that philosophy, so kudos )
Skills - For the "Love" of Tumbling
US All Star Federation: HOW TO GET CREDENTIALED

 

[theartfuldodger]

Thanks everyone for their thoughts. I brought up the fwo issue and it is staying in for now. We shall see though. We are going to be focusing more on tumbling in the next few weeks and its my hope that I can have more of say in that since that is where I have the most experience. I'm very interested in getting credentialed and have already looked into it, taken the online tests, and am just waiting for a hands on session to pop up in my area.

I do think the school cheer vs all star cheer is a major component to some of these issues. I hadn't realized how different they could be. I'll try to keep this in mind going forward and attempt to get less frustrated by the lack of progress haha

Thank you again!

 

[retiredl5cheer]

Thanks everyone for their thoughts. I brought up the fwo issue and it is staying in for now. We shall see though. We are going to be focusing more on tumbling in the next few weeks and its my hope that I can have more of say in that since that is where I have the most experience. I'm very interested in getting credentialed and have already looked into it, taken the online tests, and am just waiting for a hands on session to pop up in my area.

I do think the school cheer vs all star cheer is a major component to some of these issues. I hadn't realized how different they could be. I'll try to keep this in mind going forward and attempt to get less frustrated by the lack of progress haha

Thank you again!

If the safety issues in tumbling continue, I'd take it up with the owner if I were you. In terms of making good point, I think you have a very good standing as a former gymnastics coach who knows proper technique. It scares me to know that little kids are being told to "just do it." That's not safe and it will ultimately lead to kids developing mental blocks and/or getting hurt. Then that comes back to your gym owner because parents will pull their kids. Put it in business terms for them.

 

[theartfuldodger]

If the safety issues in tumbling continue, I'd take it up with the owner if I were you. In terms of making good point, I think you have a very good standing as a former gymnastics coach who knows proper technique. It scares me to know that little kids are being told to "just do it." That's not safe and it will ultimately lead to kids developing mental blocks and/or getting hurt. Then that comes back to your gym owner because parents will pull their kids. Put it in business terms for them.

This is what I worry about most, tbh. I don't want the kids getting injured for obvious reasons, but I also don't want their shaky technique to reflect badly on myself and the owner (whom I consider a friend). Despite my knowing the technique though, I feel that my opinion isn't taken as seriously because I don't have cheer experience. It's pretty frustrating. I probably need to be more assertive about how much knowledge I actually have as well, but that has always been tough for me. I'm still hoping to make some changes to the way we approach tumbling, but it may take time. The coach is just not very open to suggestions or other opinions. Any ideas on how to approach someone like that? She already talks about feeling "undermined" as a coach because I don't always do what she tells me to do (even though I don't have to as she is not my boss)...

 

[mamabear]

This is what I worry about most, tbh. I don't want the kids getting injured for obvious reasons, but I also don't want their shaky technique to reflect badly on myself and the owner (whom I consider a friend). Despite my knowing the technique though, I feel that my opinion isn't taken as seriously because I don't have cheer experience. It's pretty frustrating. I probably need to be more assertive about how much knowledge I actually have as well, but that has always been tough for me. I'm still hoping to make some changes to the way we approach tumbling, but it may take time. The coach is just not very open to suggestions or other opinions. Any ideas on how to approach someone like that? She already talks about feeling "undermined" as a coach because I don't always do what she tells me to do (even though I don't have to as she is not my boss)...

maybe bring them to a comp where you trust that the tumbling will be judged accordingly? if an "official" echoes your words, maybe they will listen?

 

[retiredl5cheer]

This is what I worry about most, tbh. I don't want the kids getting injured for obvious reasons, but I also don't want their shaky technique to reflect badly on myself and the owner (whom I consider a friend). Despite my knowing the technique though, I feel that my opinion isn't taken as seriously because I don't have cheer experience. It's pretty frustrating. I probably need to be more assertive about how much knowledge I actually have as well, but that has always been tough for me. I'm still hoping to make some changes to the way we approach tumbling, but it may take time. The coach is just not very open to suggestions or other opinions. Any ideas on how to approach someone like that? She already talks about feeling "undermined" as a coach because I don't always do what she tells me to do (even though I don't have to as she is not my boss)...

I worked with someone like this. It was the absolute worst year of coaching. I guarantee that she's not confident in her own abilities and that's why she feels "undermined" by you. Play up her strengths and ask for advice on stunting, etc. Then maybe she will feel less threatened by you and take some of your tumbling suggestions.