All-Star Cheer Music & Copyright Laws...

[PullandPray23]

this is how The Hunger Games started...

 

[cheerKT]

Too tired to elaborate now, but I have said several times that I still don't see how the cheer music runs the way it does. One lawsuit could bring the whole thing down.

I even discussed this with my media law professor, who is a lawyer with 30 years of experience in law and ethics of mass media. He agreed. Very interesting system we've got here.

I appreciate the music makers who have weighed in. I wish more would. I am interested in hearing their side.

 

[MNUCheer.com]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be rude at all...but when you pass around information that is incorrect and someone believes you and perhaps decides to start a business of their own or base information that could potentially cause them detriment, I think it's wrong. You are passing this information along that is incorrect and you even act smug about it; like when you said, "who are they gonna pick on, little ole me" or the big guys? You fully acknowledged that the music you "alter" is copyrighted and you are obviously aware that what you're doing isn't technically legal, by saying "who it would serve them (record companies) the most to sue. You said research....your research. I'm not inclined to believe you when you say that you have "contacted" (not retained) an attorney and/or have personally contacted ASCAP and BMI, because I do actually know the exact law and how they interpret it at the moment regarding what you do. If you consulted an attorney and he/she has told you otherwise, I would ask for my money back. If you feel so comfortable w/the information you're passing along as accurate, then you would have no problem if I contacted the RIAA right? See, you forgot to mention them. For anyone who wants to know the RIAA is a group that represents the music industry in the form of collective rights management (aka, the licensing of copyright and royalty rights) and also certifying albums in gold, platinum, etc. Also, you expect me to believe that the ASCAP, the same organization who started requesting many websites pay an embedding fee for YouTube videos, despite the fact that YouTube already pays a licensing fee, the same company who demanded iTunes to pay for streaming a quick 30 second preview clip of the music prior to purchasing it, the same organization who tried to hold the cell phone companies liable for ringtones, said that they don't have a problem with you directly making profit from selling their copyrighted material to other people?

I did tell you exactly what know, I did share exactly what I know...which is that it is technically illegal. It is not illegal to make a mixed tape yourself (provided you owned/purchased the original music first), it is not illegal for radio stations to play one of Lil Wayne's "underground" songs (songs that do not appear on any of his albums, are not available for legal purchase digitally, online, etc., that may or may not contain sampled music) that contains sampled music....which is broadcasting. All 12 of his stations are considered to be "broadcasting" music in the manner which you noted earlier. I will absolutely clarify that I have no idea w/regards to television broadcasting as to the way the law works and/or is interpreted. However, I do know about music bc it is my dad's job to know. He has to know, or else he would be out of a job. His hip-hop station has had a mix show every weekend for the past 20 years. So I know it's ok for you technically make the tapes and for them to even be heard by others. It is absolutely not illegal for a gym owner to play a mixed tape for their gym bc of broadcasting laws, by your logic, a gym owner couldn't play their own CD's bc they'd be "broadcasting" them (another example of why I got upset by your "facts" regarding the law, bc they're not facts and it could cause loads of gym owners...especially smaller ones, to get spooked bc they believed you).

As far as paying for your services, a gym owner (probably with no extensive knowledge regarding the law compared to you) would most likely assume that you, as a music producer, are adhering to proper copyright laws. Considering that your job is to provide the music, that would seem logical. Just like I would expect my daughter's coach to know how to put a routine together that is competitive, a choreographer to provide choreography that is original (i.e., not a direct rip off), etc.

I'm sorry if I offended you, because that was honestly not my intention. I was rather incredulous after reading your post bc of the inaccurate information and the nonchalant attitude you seemed to portray regarding it. I don't want people to read it and accept it for fact, when it could come back to haunt them or cause problems for them, or scare them away from doing something that is perfectly legal (especially this). I truly would assume that as music producer who is fully aware of how things work bc they have done their research to know of those huge instances when music producers were sued by major record companies after giving them samples and then turning around and suing them. I also was struck by how naive you seemed regarding how much of a "fight" the cheerleading world give the record companies. The music industry would most certainly win any type of lawsuit in this arena based on the simple fact that it's illegal. Now do I want that? Of course not! Do I personally care that you are selling your mixes? No, I do not..I am aware that it is technically illegal, but I do not personally think it is that big of a deal. That is my personal opinion though, not the facts.. I hope we continue to fly under the radar bc I love cheer music and I would hate to see it change when, in my opinion, it really doesn't affect such a large percentage of the music industry at all...but, let's be real. They are greedy and they will attempt to find every way to make as much money as they possibly can. The ASCAP is a non-profit organization..and I already gave examples of their antics in the first paragraph of my reply. I truly don't mind what you do, but I was bothered by the inaccuracies and the potential fall out over them, as well as your "well it's not lil ole me they want" attitude. I apologize if it came across that harshly, as I meant not to offend you ok? I'm just trying to state the facts. If I didn't know for sure, I would have stated so (and always will...as it will usually start out, "feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but", etc.).

xtremeteal4life You are right! My brother in-law is a music producer and owns his own studio and has mentioned this to me numerous times as he has fixed my mixes in the past. What we are doing is illegal to the RIAA. A "production" of cheer music is not covered by ASCAP, that is for people who write or compose music. Mixing Lil Wayne with Toby Keith with a "YEAH" is not writing your own music. As for BMI, that is for business's who play music for a crowd since their business are used for personal gain such as DJ's, fitness club, bar, night club, and so on. Any music production with music that is not yours, the engineer understands they are manipulating the artists work, ignorance is not a defense in a court of law. He also thinks cheer mixes are way over priced but since our market is smaller and the lack of knowledge how to mix music causes our demand and prices to be higher than normal.

Thats my two cents!

 

[xtremeteal4life]

xtremeteal4life You are right! My brother in-law is a music producer and owns his own studio and has mentioned this to me numerous times as he has fixed my mixes in the past. What we are doing is illegal to the RIAA. A "production" of cheer music is not covered by ASCAP, that is for people who write or compose music. Mixing Lil Wayne with Toby Keith with a "YEAH" is not writing your own music. As for BMI, that is for business's who play music for a crowd since their business are used for personal gain such as DJ's, fitness club, bar, night club, and so on. Any music production with music that is not yours, the engineer understands they are manipulating the artists work, ignorance is not a defense in a court of law. He also thinks cheer mixes are way over priced but since our market is smaller and the lack of knowledge how to mix music causes our demand and prices to be higher than normal.

Thats my two cents!

Thank you so much! I felt bad bc I wasn't trying to mean, but I guess it came across that way Yours sounds much more polite, lol. I just got frustrated bc I don't want someone to read those pretty significant inaccuracies and suffer unintended consequences. I'm not trying to shut down cheer music, just trying to lay out the facts! For the most part, I think we stand a good chance to continue flying under the radar for a while..but that depends on either circumstance and/or luck ya know? On the one hand, we want cheer to be HUGE and we want people to know we're serious athletes and that this is a legitimate sport! At least I believe most of us do. If that continues to happen, eventually it's bound to pop up as an issue. The other difference between BMI and the ASCAP is that they are "non-profit", but the RIAA actually represent the music industry and attempt to enforce anti-piracy laws. They handle a vast majority of the licensing for music industry..as most of their clients are major record labels. They're the ones you really don't wanna mess with. I wasn't trying to get into a pissing contest, I was just really also shocked at his/her blatant acknowledgement that the music he/she samples is still copyrighted, but he/she's under no obligation to pay (and that he/she claimed it was legal while knowing he's the one directly profiting from the mixes). All he/she would have to do is apply for a license of some sort as well to make it legal. It also really bugged me that some poor coach might actually think that it's illegal to play their music in the gym. We don't need a license to play music we own in front of a crowd during a practice. In addition to the point I made earlier about a gym owner assuming that a music producer would know what they're liable for and expect that they are handling their business legally.

 

[12mowerd]

it seems to me like music producers probably just buy the copyrights to a song.... kind of like buying it on itunes and then can reuse the songs over and over. my friend bought a copyright for a song on youtube and it only cost 3-4 dollars

 

[MNUCheer.com]

Thank you so much! I felt bad bc I wasn't trying to mean, but I guess it came across that way Yours sounds much more polite, lol. I just got frustrated bc I don't want someone to read those pretty significant inaccuracies and suffer unintended consequences. I'm not trying to shut down cheer music, just trying to lay out the facts! For the most part, I think we stand a good chance to continue flying under the radar for a while..but that depends on either circumstance and/or luck ya know? On the one hand, we want cheer to be HUGE and we want people to know we're serious athletes and that this is a legitimate sport! At least I believe most of us do. If that continues to happen, eventually it's bound to pop up as an issue. The other difference between BMI and the ASCAP is that they are "non-profit", but the RIAA actually represent the music industry and attempt to enforce anti-piracy laws. They handle a vast majority of the licensing for music industry..as most of their clients are major record labels. They're the ones you really don't wanna mess with. I wasn't trying to get into a pissing contest, I was just really also shocked at his/her blatant acknowledgement that the music he/she samples is still copyrighted, but he/she's under no obligation to pay (and that he/she claimed it was legal while knowing he's the one directly profiting from the mixes). All he/she would have to do is apply for a license of some sort as well to make it legal. It also really bugged me that some poor coach might actually think that it's illegal to play their music in the gym. We don't need a license to play music we own in front of a crowd during a practice. In addition to the point I made earlier about a gym owner assuming that a music producer would know what they're liable for and expect that they are handling their business legally.

Another issue that I think many gym owners may not be aware of is streaming free Music such as Pandora in their gym. This is illegal too. Pandora has this in their agreements when you sign up and so does every other free streaming music service. If you are profiting off a free service that is a no no too! I know its going to be a rare chance you would ever be caught but if you are a bigger gym Top Gun, Cheer Athletics where you have a greater chance of someone stopping in. You may have a kid whos parent works for the industry and they have incentives or a chance they could put their job in jeopardy if they didn't turn you in.

I am all for the cheer industry to be HUGE as you said and hope we don't have any issues for a long long time. I just want coaches and gym owners to beware these could be actual issues and as I said the judicial system does not turn their head just because you did not know. Thats what I said in my earlier post "Ignorance, is not a defense." We will keep doing what we are doing and hope the music industry looks at us as a benefit to their corporation!

 

[kkinsley]

I have given this issue a lot of thought in the last few years. I am aware the law here in the UK is different than the US so I wont pretend to understand the legal issues involved there. I can however speak for our situation.
The gym I coach in must buy a license every year to broadcast any music within the gym. This is needed covers us playing the radio in the gym and playing CDs. We are mainly a gymnastic facility and a few years ago British Gymnastics released a notice saying Disney and Cirque du Soleil music was no longer allowed to be used as floor music. This was brought about as routines had been brought to both the companies attentions over the years and their response was it stops or we sue. This is completely within their rights and I feel as cheer music continues to grow it may become more of a problem. Strangely we also participate is gymnastics competitions in the Republic of Ireland and they do not have these companies banned at present as they have never been contacted so I guess it depends on what they are aware of.

 

[King]

I think the reason no one sues is because it would cost more to come after the music producers than it would be worth. Who wants to go through the time, energy, and PR.

 

[REA Dad]

I think the reason no one sues is because it would cost more to come after the music producers than it would be worth. Who wants to go through the time, energy, and PR.

Don't be so sure, My town is very small and very few people use the public pool.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/phillipsburg/index.ssf/2011/09/lopatcong_township_council_pre.html

 

[ashscott41]

King is absolutely right. Method Man has said in numerous interviews that his daughter is a cheerleader and he goes to her competitions. There is no way he could go to a comp and not hear either his own music, or someone he is friends with's music. Same thing with Miley Cyrus or the Kardashians or any other celebrities involved in cheer. It is not worth their time to have a legal team look into all the legalities associated with cheer music production. As the cheer community grows I'm sure it is only a matter of time before some musician/producer/writer goes to a competition and wonders why someone else is making money on their work.

 

[JumpingJackFlash]

Don't be so sure, My town is very small and very few people use the public pool.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/phillipsburg/index.ssf/2011/09/lopatcong_township_council_pre.html

That is ridiculous!

 

[ztaprincess]

Most probably won't take the time to sue therefore we will continue to fly under the radar for a while longer, but if this SOPA/PIPA bill gets past then I think more attention will be drawn to it. It won't just be cheer though the attention will be on all sports I think.

 

[King]

Don't be so sure, My town is very small and very few people use the public pool.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/phillipsburg/index.ssf/2011/09/lopatcong_township_council_pre.html

It's all about how easy it is to do and if someone has the interest. If each music producer does 200 mixes a year... and there is 20 music producers... 4,000 cases a year? I am sure there is ways to bundle them but also include the bad publicity. It's not that it can't happen, it is just that someone would have to have a bug up their butt kinda motivation.

 

[ufomom]

It's all about how easy it is to do and if someone has the interest. If each music producer does 200 mixes a year... and there is 20 music producers... 4,000 cases a year? I am sure there is ways to bundle them but also include the bad publicity. It's not that it can't happen, it is just that someone would have to have a bug up their butt kinda motivation.

What were the downloads that the music industry went after individual teenagers for? Limewire or something similar? It seemed small potatoes, but they did it anyway. And in house, we pay for our music!

And I agree that someone would have to really want to make a big deal out of it to being litigation given the small number of music producers. It will probably be someone in the music business that is flipping channels and hits on a cheer competition or a cheer reality TV show. I would imagine just a suit or two would cause everyone else to toe the line (whatever that line may be.)

 

[King]

What were the downloads that the music industry went after individual teenagers for? Limewire or something similar? It seemed small potatoes, but they did it anyway. And in house, we pay for our music!

And I agree that someone would have to really want to make a big deal out of it to being litigation given the small number of music producers. It will probably be someone in the music business that is flipping channels and hits on a cheer competition or a cheer reality TV show. I would imagine just a suit or two would cause everyone else to toe the line (whatever that line may be.)

Collectively it was huge though. That is because they were seeing their entire industry slipping away. This is a small bit different.