All-Star Gym Owners Refusing To Sign Release... Appeal Process?..

[Just-a-Mom]

I couldn't walk into my boss's office at the GK Corporate Office (with my mom) raising a b**** fit about a non compete contract (Lets be honest, the release is kind of a non-compete) and expect any kind of results except to get thrown out. Cheer is no difference, it is a business. Period.

Well you know I've always liked this rule, but I disagree with comparing it to a non compete. That's a contract, signed with no mystery whatsoever. And if it's a good one, it's written by an attorney. And you most certainly have an appeals process with a non compete - even an "iron clad" one. My sister just fought one and won. The company had to release 42 people from what a court ruled was an unreasonable contract.

My feelings are that if someone pursued this to court they might manage to drag it out long enough to still make the kid miss worlds, but any halfway decent attorney could get a judge to rule that this rule can't be enforced without a clearly signed document with the rule in it somewhere. (and no, I'm not sure why people are signing things without fully knowing what they're signing).

Like I said, I have no problem with the rule. Just with the fact that it's ok for gym owners to very intentionally not include it in their paperwork (and it is intentional - my cp's level 5 team paperwork was 20 pages long and I searched for this rule and it was nowhere. Practically the whole USASF website was in there, but no release rule) and then they want to enforce it. If you're not going to make an appeals process Andre (which I do understand finally), would you concede that maybe USASF could at least make it mandatory that if a gym wishes to enforce it that they need to include that in their beginning of season paperwork? I don't think it's unreasonable to mandate that these "contracts" be more honest.

 

[Deleted member 15]

It has minors names and pictures.

Rewrite the text.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Respectfully disagree. For those who have trained from a young age, and focused on their training, gave up SO MUCH because they trained instead, cheering IS all about worlds. 90% may not care... But for the ones who have dedicated so much of their life to cheer, it's all about worlds. 1 missed year,it's big. As for the open team the next year, not all athletes will have that opportunity. I agree it is a privilege... That kids work their butts off for.

I know kids that have given up every bit of everything for cheer, worked like dogs, never miss a practice and they eat, sleep and breathe cheer.... And they haven't (and won't) progress past level 2.

I don't think it means they don't care. If you could put their heart into someone more naturally talented they would rule the world.

But Worlds teams are elite teams for the sole fact everyone can't do what they can do. It doesn't (in my mind) make levels 1-4 any lesser of people.

 

[Deleted member 15]

The only thing? I'm sorry but you make it sound like its a small little thing... This is what our kids train for YEARS for. We pay thousands for our kids to have the opportunity to cheer at worlds. (Yes kids choose teams based on worlds opportunities... Very few level 5 athletes would choose a gym without a worlds team...) They have 6 eligible years. If they don't have they skills at 12, they have fewer than 6. This is my athletes goal in cheer. Whether you want to admit it or not, there are immature coaches and owners out there who will not hesitate to spitefully decline a request for a release. And yes, there are gyms with safety issues. Maybe not the mega monster programs but there are far more kids enrolled in small programs than at mega gyms... And other issues may not rear their ugly heads until after the first time they hit the mat. It's easy to say none of this would change your mind... Until its your kid who misses 1 of 6 or less opportunities because a gym failed to live up to its promises.

I've said nothing I've seen yet would make me vote for a change and that is still true. I've also implied if it were to change I'd be ok with it and that is still true.

Worlds is 1 thing that could be missed once if 1. An athlete chose a gym and 2. That athlete chose to leave a gym after competing with that gym past November 1st.

Athletes have more than 6 opportunities to go to Worlds as International Open divisions don't have an age ceiling. If there is so much time and money invested and the senior team years have passed, open teams may be worth exploring to achieve a life long dream of competing at Worlds.

If you are at a gym with safety issues I would encourage you to leave, but that doesn't make me believe you should automatically be granted an exception to compete at Worlds.

I've seen the immature, spiteful, mean, and ugly side of more coaches than probably anyone in the industry not named Les Stella, so I will gladly admit the issues facing some people in our industry. That doesn't change my vote.

 

[yesucan]

I know kids that have given up every bit of everything for cheer, worked like dogs, never miss a practice and they eat, sleep and breathe cheer.... And they haven't (and won't) progress past level 2.

I don't think it means they don't care. If you could put their heart into someone more naturally talented they would rule the world.

But Worlds teams are elite teams for the sole fact everyone can't do what they can do. It doesn't (in my mind) make levels 1-4 any lesser of people.

I most certainly did not say 1-4 are any less than 5s... Would NEVER even dream of thinking that... But this thread is about level 5, and worlds, and appeals... But when it comes to it, and it will, the same thread or something close to it will be up about levels 1-4 regarding the summit.

Yes worlds teams are elite, which is WHY worlds is such a big deal.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Like I said, I have no problem with the rule. Just with the fact that it's ok for gym owners to very intentionally not include it in their paperwork (and it is intentional - my cp's level 5 team paperwork was 20 pages long and I searched for this rule and it was nowhere. Practically the whole USASF website was in there, but no release rule) and then they want to enforce it. If you're not going to make an appeals process Andre (which I do understand finally), would you concede that maybe USASF could at least make it mandatory that if a gym wishes to enforce it that they need to include that in their beginning of season paperwork? I don't think it's unreasonable to mandate that these "contracts" be more honest.

The gyms don't enforce it, the USASF made this requirement.

 

[shadow]

IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/oqcfph.png[/IMG]

This is not the one originally referred to. This is a tweet from a coach.

 

[12stepCheermom]

I most certainly did not say 1-4 are any less than 5s... Would NEVER even dream of thinking that... But this thread is about level 5, and worlds, and appeals... But when it comes to it, and it will, the same thread or something close to it will be up about levels 1-4 regarding the summit.

Yes worlds teams are elite, which is WHY worlds is such a big deal.

I just think its a choice and like every choice it has consequences. Yes I believe either end of the spectrum has some spiteful bitter people that could use an appeals process to ensure fairness to both parties (which may mean your appeal is not granted). I don't think it's necessary for me personally, just because I agree with the earlier poster's sentiments even if I don't believe it was communicated diplomatically.

However, my kids have level five skills but are at a gym without a level 5 team. We could've chosen to leave mid year but personally did not because 1) I believe in teaching my kids to finish what they start 2) I think you can learn from every situation good, bad or indifferent and 3) what's the rush?

My kids don't need to compete at worlds six times. They have time and I wouldn't feel right about stepping onto a team with a bid my kids didn't earn. Then it becomes about "I'm going to worlds!" Versus "were going to worlds!" And that's a big difference. I think they need to experience that entire progression of the team from its beginning, the wins, the losses, the bud quest... Together so when it's game time in April you're all equally committed.

That being says, I'm not a big fan if black and white. There are always outliers and exceptions and that's why I think an appeals process, even if its rarely used is a good fail safe to have.

 

[NJ Coach]

I just think its a choice and like every choice it has consequences. Yes I believe either end of the spectrum has some spiteful bitter people that could use an appeals process to ensure fairness to both parties (which may mean your appeal is not granted). I don't think it's necessary for me personally, just because I agree with the earlier poster's sentiments even if I don't believe it was communicated diplomatically.

However, my kids have level five skills but are at a gym without a level 5 team. We could've chosen to leave mid year but personally did not because 1) I believe in teaching my kids to finish what they start 2) I think you can learn from every situation good, bad or indifferent and 3) what's the rush?

My kids don't need to compete at worlds six times. They have time and I wouldn't feel right about stepping onto a team with a bid my kids didn't earn. Then it becomes about "I'm going to worlds!" Versus "were going to worlds!" And that's a big difference. I think they need to experience that entire progression of the team from its beginning, the wins, the losses, the bud quest... Together so when it's game time in April you're all equally committed.

That being says, I'm not a big fan if black and white. There are always outliers and exceptions and that's why I think an appeals process, even if its rarely used is a good fail safe to have.

I like you :cloud9:

 

[shadow]

IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/oqcfph.png[/IMG]

This is not the one originally referred to. This is a tweet from a coach.

Andre I have never posted a picture before. I will PM you the other one if you want it.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

The gyms don't enforce it, the USASF made this requirement.

Semantics, but all the more reason USASF should have a legal document signed by the parent/guardian to use as a basis for enforcement. But really, it's the gym making the decision here. If the gym owner is going to be the only one allowed to make a decision about whether or not to release the athlete, then the onus should be on them to back it up and prove that they were upfront with their customers. I'm not sure why anyone thinks it's ok that these gyms are not saying anything about this rule until it's time to refuse to sign the release. Because I never sign something without reading it, and I have to say if I wasn't on Fierceboard I'd have signed that 20 page thing and never have had a clue that i needed to scour the internet looking for some more rules - because in my world you're only liable for what's in the papers you sign.

I'm just not sure why suggesting that there be a simple addition to the rule stating that in order to refuse to sign a release, a gym owner must have documentation that everyone was aware of the rule is so crazy. And truthfully at the beginning of the season when your cp has just made a worlds team, you'll sign anything, because you can't even imagine that the utopia that is your cp's gym won't stay that way. Just a little cya for everyone involved. It would make it harder for people to say they didn't know, for sure.

Like I said, I like the rule. Just a thought to make life easier.

 

[Deleted member 15]

IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/oqcfph.png[/IMG]

This is not the one originally referred to. This is a tweet from a coach.

I would have posted it with the coaches name. I'm all for letting screenshots do the talking with stuff like this and recruiting.

Getting back on topic, is the coach being an booty before or after an athlete leaves a solid reason for an exception?

 

[Deleted member 15]

Semantics

The USASF can allow or not allow anyone to participate in their event. That's why I pointed that out. They say things like you have to be 12-18 on August 31, 2012 to be able to compete in a senior division at Worlds 2013 and you don't have to sign something saying you agree to that. In this case they said if you've done X, you need Y to compete at their event and you don't need to sign something to say you agree to that.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

The USASF can allow or not allow anyone to participate in their event. That's why I pointed that out. They say things like you have to be 12-18 on August 31, 2012 to be able to compete in a senior division at Worlds 2013 and you don't have to sign something saying you agree to that. In this case they said if you've done X, you need Y to compete at their event and you don't need to sign something to say you agree to that.

True. That's actually a good point.

As always I do appreciate you taking the time to answer us.

 

[Mom Jeans]

Although most don't want to admit it, cheerleading is not all about worlds, there's much more to it than that. Somewhere around 90% of cheerleaders will never have the opportunity to compete at worlds. So in reality, missing out on one is not a huge deal. Yea it does suck and I feel bad for the athletes that go through situations like this, but you will most likely have another opportunity. If it's your last year and worlds is that important to you, than find an open team to compete with the following year. Like others have said, competing at worlds is a privilege, you are not entitled to compete at worlds just because you are a level 5 athlete. Sorry, jmo.

I have to disagree, in California every level 5 team goes to Worlds, so if you are on a level 5 then you want to go to Worlds. It's been a few years where maybe 1 gym doesnt get a bid. Tryout flyers state "Worlds Level 5 Tryouts"

I also feel that if a gym closes there is no basis to need a release, there is no "team" affiliation at that point. And most likely you've already paid for your entire year of cheer by the time Worlds comes around and you didnt get what you paid for.

What would be the point of not allowing someone to go that is from a gym that closed? I dont think a contract is valid if both parties havent signed it and I have yet to see a contract that states the release rule, why wouldnt a gym put that language in there, why not be upfront and transparent? When USASF put the rule in place they shouldve required member gyms to put the language in their contracts.