All-Star Les Response To James Speed Reaction

[WuToDouble]

I know I am going to get a lot of crap for this, but this right here is why I personally believe cheering isn't a sport... Are we athletes? Definitely. I can say that over 90% of gyms hire a choreographer for their routines, and basically they are the ones to "paint the blank canvas" which then falls to, who can pay the best choreographer for their "painting" will end up getting a better performance score (not necessarily execution and difficulty). But with the worlds scoresheet so subjective at the moment, I think cheering shouldn't be called a sport, due to who can pay the better choreographer. Don't get me wrong, the rubric does a good job of telling you the ranges, but then after that and execution, its extremely subjective...

USASF Issues Response to Scoresheet Challenges - CHEERdaily.com

 

[WuToDouble]

"Gymnastics, figure skating and others hire choreographers too. So why are those sports?"

thats the argument that i kind of need to figure out how to respond to. its hard to justify them as a sport by my definition of “objective scoring.” so as naive as it may sound, i usually can’t justify my reasoning for calling them a sport.

and the problem with my argument along with other people, of not wanting a comparative scoresheet, is that in order to not have a comparative scoresheet would have to completely change cheering at its state right now cuz this would mean also eliminating the dance. which i don’t believe people want to do, but the way that stunt competition was ran where every team had the same dvd and whoever hit the most flawless, i think that was headed in the right direction of a sport...

 

[Official OWECheer]

I have to agree with James.

"The judges SHOULD NOT be looking for anything. They should be judging what YOU put in your routine."

"The rubrics have only been around for 5 to 7 yrs not 15 and converting cheerleading from subjective to objective will only hurt this sport. This is not gymnastics or diving. Our sport actually has performance value to it and has many more than one participant at a time. I pray that we NEVER use gymnastics or diving as our role model. We have athletes join our sport by the thousands across this globe because of the attraction creativity, showmanship and performance that does not exist in these other sports."

But I also have to agree with Les.

"My take on the issue:

• For roughly five to seven years we have watched this industry go down the rabbit hole of the rubric system. Systems where coaches use a score sheet to determine what they put in their routines.
  Score sheets SHOULD NOT dictate your choreography. Coaching and choreography is your responsibility and not that of the score sheet or the judges.I will use an analogy to help explain both my point and to show where I think the problem lies.
• Too many coaches are asking for paint by number instead of a blank canvas. Unless you are a true artist, anyone will do a better job with a paint by number system. It tells you what color to use, where to put the color and what the picture will look like in the end before you ever get started.
• If you take coaches like Victor and Kristen from Top Gun (this is not to slight any other top programs but just to use an obvious example), they do not use a paint by number but rather a blank canvas and create what they want. This is what cheerleading is. Performance, showmanship, creativity and skills are what make up this industry and attracts so many athletes.
• If you have great skills but don’t spend time on your transitions and formations then you SHOULD lose in that category and it may cost you the place you were hoping for.
• As I said earlier, I hope and pray that we never use gymnastics, diving and/or any other judging sport as our role model to develop this industry. We are very unique. We have many many athletes on the floor at one time compared to these sports who have a single athlete performing. Also, we are not a sport based skills alone with no regards to entertainment value."

 

[King]

There is the issue: need to define what cheerleading is.

 

[getsum]

the trophies going to the team/person who can put out the most money is nothing new in ANY sport. starting at the individual level, someone who wants to be a top flyer or tumbler or swimmer can only have their talent cultivated by themselves to a certain degree before theyll need a coach to bring out the rest of their talent. coaches cost money. if two athletes are equal in talent, the kid who gets the most coaching or who has the most money will have a better shot of becoming better than the other. the gym/franhise that can afford the better coaches will have a better chance than other gyms at producing great athletic performance. well accepted sports, such as soccer, will have clubs at a better advantage because the owner can afford the best players. i remeber some arabian billionaire bought some English club and contracted the best players from other clubs around the world, and that team was pretty much unbeatable.

saying that cheer isnt a sport because money is involved and gives an advantge to others doest fair to well considering how involved money is in well accepted sports.

 

[cupieqt]

There is the issue: need to define what cheerleading is.

Having one set scoring system would help. We will all adapt to whatever it will be. But pick ONE. Do any other subjectively scored sports use different scoring systems for different events?

 

[King]

Having one set scoring system would help. We will all adapt to whatever it will be. But pick ONE. Do any other subjectively scored sports use different scoring systems for different events?

Framing the discussion is key. From what I just read in Les's argument that 'oh dear gawd please let cheer never be a sport'. If we cant set the framework FOR the argument then we cant discuss the finer points.

 

[WuToDouble]

someone important sent me this statement:

'I agree with what you're saying and I believe it's the same argument that Courtney Pope and James Speed and a little people are trying to make as well...especially since there is definitely a shortage of good judges and a lack of proper judges training and certification.I just believe wholeheartedly in comparative scoring for cheer whether it's a sport or not by today's standards bc I believe that the subjective and creative proponents of its i.e. choreography is what inspires people"

 

[King]

someone important sent me this statement:

'I agree with what you're saying and I believe it's the same argument that Courtney Pope and James Speed and a little people are trying to make as well...especially since there is definitely a shortage of good judges and a lack of proper judges training and certification.I just believe wholeheartedly in comparative scoring for cheer whether it's a sport or not by today's standards bc I believe that the subjective and creative proponents of its i.e. choreography is what inspires people"

why do people think rubric scoring gets rid of choreography?

 

[Official OWECheer]

why do people think rubric scoring gets rid of choreography?

I think they mean that it becomes more restrictive and causes choreographers to have to pack more skills in. The really creative ones don't find this a problem and can create full out SHOWS, like the Rosarios.

 

[King]

I think they mean that it becomes more restrictive and causes choreographers to have to pack more skills in. The really creative ones don't find this a problem and can create full out SHOWS, like the Rosarios.

Yes and no. They create a full out show with one team. The rest of the gym is good but even medium all girl (which won worlds and is talented) wasn't more a show than a normal team. Boys allow more high flying show.

The thing is the scoresheet isn't preventing all these TGLC type shows. To even have that takes the right talent, coaches, and division (boys just make flying whirly doos easier). And that's fine!

 

[BlueCat]

why do people think rubric scoring gets rid of choreography?

I feel the same way. No one is suggesting we eliminate subjectivity or stop rewarding creativity. Also, last time I checked, the Rosarios and Top Gun Large Coed weren't having problems getting high scores on a system with difficulty standards.

 

[catlady]

"Too many coaches are asking for paint by number instead of a blank canvas. Unless you are a true artist, anyone will do a better job with a paint by number system. It tells you what color to use, where to put the color and what the picture will look like in the end before you ever get started."

I don't believe coaches are asking for a paint by number. If a team goes out there, has a jam packed skilled routine, and hits clean, and then another goes out and takes out a few skills but, has awesome audience appeal with choreography and motions, and hits clean, coaches, and everyone else, wants to know which one is going to win. That isn't paint by number, it's defining what is more important, increasing skill difficulty or audience appeal. I appreciate both but, I still want to know what the judges are going to prefer. Sorry they are so large but, which painting do you prefer? The top went for 79.7 million, the bottom went for 80 million. Even those that appreciate art want to know what made that painting more valuable.

 

[chyeeaaa69]

why do people think rubric scoring gets rid of choreography?

I think the issue comes if there were ever a "code of points." Not every team, but I think the majority of teams, would come out with very cookie cutter routines that only do what they have to, and not necessarily routines that push the boundaries and go above and beyond. Someone in another thread suggested 2 point skills, 3 point skills, 4 point skills, etc. So let's say the maximum was 5 points, and a double up from squish/sponge whatever you call it was worth 5 points, what would be the point of a team like Great Whites coming out with a double up from plank, or Brandon Senior Black with those beautifully executing double arounds at the top?
Not saying I agree that rubric scoring gets rid of choreography/creativity, I just think maybe that's where people are getting that.

 

[quitthedrama]

I think the issue comes if there were ever a "code of points." Not every team, but I think the majority of teams, would come out with very cookie cutter routines that only do what they have to, and not necessarily routines that push the boundaries and go above and beyond. Someone in another thread suggested 2 point skills, 3 point skills, 4 point skills, etc. So let's say the maximum was 5 points, and a double up from squish/sponge whatever you call it was worth 5 points, what would be the point of a team like Great Whites coming out with a double up from plank, or Brandon Senior Black with those beautifully executing double arounds at the top?
Not saying I agree that rubric scoring gets rid of choreography/creativity, I just think maybe that's where people are getting that.

I don't disagree, but you still have a section for choreography, performance, etc. I have no problem with some of the score sheet being subjective, but to promote a "blank canvas" and EP choice for bids just makes no sense to me. I also had an issue with the fact that they stated they were "experimenting" with the score sheet this year and recognized there was a lack of judges training. If that is the case why am I paying thousands of dollars in comp fees for "on the job" research and training?
I don't know why a code of points is so difficult. There are only so many skills you can do. The motions, transitions, dismounts etc can be added bonus points to your start value.