All-Star "name" Of Gym Affecting Placement?

[RockstarCheer]

Wait, so you're saying that big programs attact the best coaches, but you got hired twice by programs that didn't exist?

I started at a large program- Gym Tyme. Then I got hired by a small program in 1999 when I wanted to build a program. Then I started Rockstar, which I built and then after a couple years of success we attracted some amazing coaches. My point of my post is Large, successful programs naturally attract better coaches, they also develop great coaches. But good coaches may also go to a small program to build it to a big program.

 

[WCMAN]

That's a really good way to put it Jody, and I think that's kind of what we try to do as well

I would also like to add that most people seem to be under the impression that the judges themselves have a vested interest in who actually wins or attends the competition... This isn't really the case. Judges are subcontracted by the competition companies, they are not their employees. People who judge do so because they emjoy cheerleading and for the most part take it very seriously. Judges are concerned about judging the teams accurately and getting the team placements right, they do not make any more or less money if particular teams win or lose. I'm also not sure how many extremely large programs are pulling out of competitions becuase they didn't win enough... I really think what most programs are looking for is a FAIR judgement, not a free ride. I promise you for every one judge who might feel a little extra love for a recognizable program, there is AT LEAST one more (I would venture to say multiple more) that are actually holding that program to a slightly higher standard because they expect more from Cheer Athletics, or World Cup or whoever the program may be. I know for a fact we were at a competition (that I will NOT name) and were told by the event producer that our teams are "judged a little tougher" because of the judges high expectation. Life's not fair, the grass is always greener, we all have our issues to deal with... It's important to keep in mind the fact that the ONLY thing we truly have any control over is ourselves, and if you want to change an outcome you have to change yourself

Wow! You took the words right out of my mouth....So funny and so true being held to a higher standard. They expect the big guys to walk on water...LOL.... it keeps being said that the big gyms win the close calls but it could also go the other way , we could say we don't win some close calls because the don't want all the first place trophies to go to one program....could happen. Lets just have faith in the judges and their integrity. They do the best they can. For the most part I feel they do a great job.

 

[socratesofcheer]

I'm not saying people won't steal material, because I know they will, but if they like it when they see it and the team doing it originally places well someone who is inclined to do that will likely do it regardless of weather or not they see the actual score. On the other hand, I am confident enough in my coaching ability, and the abilities of every other coach in my gym (and yours for that matter haha) that even if someone steals our stunt/pyramid transition when they see it at a competition they will never be able to do it as well as us simply because we have already been working on it for 6-8 months.

On the big gym wins because of their name topic... I find the whole implication to be pretty insulting quite frankly. As it has been said millions of times on this and various other cheerleading forums the big gym didn't start as a big gym, they got big through hard work and SUPERIOR COACHING! It's easy to make excuses for a loss, especially when your head has been filled with propaganda about the evil big gym, or (as a coach or owner) you are scared of losing your athletes to the gym that beat you. It's much easier to project a short coming onto the judges or politics in general, rather than taking a real honest look at your team and figuring out what your team could have done differently to change the outcome. The only thing you have any control over is your behavior, your abilities, and your preparation, if you honestly believe that if it's neck and neck the coin flip will go to the big gym (which I don't I actually think it goes the other way because we all love the underdog and hate the yankees) then it's your responsibility to remove all doubt and make your team unquestionably better! For some reason everyone will agree that Bill Belichick, Mike Krzyzewski, Pat Summit or whoever else are such great coaches that they can create winners out of any team, myself included, but when a cheerleading team loses the fact that they got out coached never crosses anyone's mind! Judges are biased, the big gyms get an advantage, or those kids are just better "anyone could win with those kids" is all you ever hear! It gets really old! I don't mean that to be insulting to any coaches but everyone always thinks they are already such a great coach that they have nothing to learn, if only they were part of this secret club where you get all the breaks. That's not it... Read a book by one of the legendary coaches (I would recommend John Wooden), talk to coaches from historically successful cheer programs, I find that most coaches are really open and honest about the way their program works, and ultimately WORK HARDER, if you want to beat my team you are going to have to out work us, at least that's the way I see it, and that's hard to do. Sorry for the rant, this is just a touchy subject for me..

That's easy for you to say, you're from a big gym!

 

[ACEDAD]

I started at a large program- Gym Tyme. Then I got hired by a small program in 1999 when I wanted to build a program. Then I started Rockstar, which I built and then after a couple years of success we attracted some amazing coaches. My point of my post is Large, successful programs naturally attract better coaches, they also develop great coaches. But good coaches may also go to a small program to build it to a big program.

I was just being a smart a$$.

I know you're good and was teasing.

 

[socratesofcheer]

A bit off topic, but I find it insulting to conclude that larger programs naturally have superior coaches. There are many small programs that have equal or maybe even better coaches than some of the larger programs, but ufortunately do not have the numbers to work with. In many (disclaimer: NOT ALL) cases, these girls/boys on the teams we admire and worship so much come from the smaller gyms where they are coached to have those skills, and then they decide to hand feed themselves to the coaches of the larger programs.

I do agree that it's insulting for small gyms to automatically assume that big gyms win because of their name. It discredits the athletes and coaches who have put time and hard work into those routines. Most qualified judges are professional enough to give the right placements and "gifts" to the teams who deserve them, regardless of a gym's name or stature.

Unfortunately, judges are humans, and it is human nature to be more fearful of Mr./Mrs. Big Program Owner/Industry Icon than Mr./Mrs. Gym Owner What's Your Name Again? So in close call situations (especially those which occur at the local level where the judges are usually not that great), you will have judges who make decisions based on fear and repercussion versus strong principles and integrity.

I find your 1st and 3rd paragraphs to be the typical response by the small gym crowd. I'm not sure of the stats (maybe BlueCat can help out) but look at the results from worlds club divisions since it's inception. I would venture to guess the vast majority of medals have been awarded to a small percentage of the teams. This is because the best coaching comes from those gyms.

I have a feeling this might turn into a "we are the 99%" or "Occupy fierceboard" discussion.

 

[cupieqt]

Haven't we discussed the little gym/big gym before? I'm from a smallish gym. I'm a fabulous coach. Idc how big you are, if you beat us you earned it or we gave it away or both. I don't make excuses and I don't allow my athletes to either.

 

[KB_Legend]

Haven't we discussed the little gym/big gym before? I'm from a smallish gym. I'm a fabulous coach. Idc how big you are, if you beat us you earned it or we gave it away or both. I don't make excuses and I don't allow my athletes to either.

And modest, I like that about you hahaha At which gym do you coach?

 

[cupieqt]

And modest, I like that about you hahaha At which gym do you coach?

Lol! I gotta toot my own horn sometimes
: D

Leaps & Bounds Sports Center. Cheer Energy. I started CE in 2008 after the last program I coached for merged with another. I wasn't happy with the unprofessionalism so I left. Best move I ever made!!

 

[siobhanrebecca]

I've been to competitions run by gyms where they had judges from their own gym judge the event. of course they won... such poop.

 

[tumbleyoda]

There is merit on both sides of the big gym/small gym arguments. Big gyms dont like to hear that the only reason they won is because of their name, they don't train their kids or to held to a standard that is near impossible to hit every time they take the floor for anything. Small gyms dont like to hear the only reason they are small is because they are no good, don't challenge their athletes enough, their coaches are not any good and to see athletes they have worked with since they started get skills then go over to the big gyms , use those same skills and forget where they came from, so to speak. Funny the the one thing both sides accuse the other of is not training their athletes. :banghead: Unfortunately nothing we will ever say will change those dynamics because they are present in about every arena of life. IMO it is the throwing all big gyms and small gyms together into a group and then making claims about the entire group which is wrong. Every gym is different and should be viewed that way.

Everyone regardless of program name, reputation, size must be treated and judged by the same standard at competitions. No exceptions. Whether is is a local event, regional or major national competition with World's bids on the line. No extra time for warm ups, special considerations given in performance order, private practice time offers that are not openly offered to every team at the event, etc. Those are EP issues that may be given as "perks" to induce a program to come to an event which then affects the perception of how they are judged. To simply say Well the big program asked for it and we would of given it to the small program to if they asked is a cop out by the EP.

Now as to placement which is the subject of this thread - If a small gym gets hit for an illegality for a certain element, don't give the large gym a warning for the same element because their coaches are so good they would know better than to have taught it that way. It should be the same across the board. Either warn all teams, or take the deduction for all teams. Consistency and transparency are critical to minimizing this perception. If there was more transparency in the judging and the availability of scores of all teams and divisions for review, this would eliminate a lot of the non factual claims, and if there was merit it would be shown by written evidence.

 

[yojaehs]

I've been to competitions run by gyms where they had judges from their own gym judge the event. of course they won... such poop.

You should have done your research and not gone to the comp, if you did they why whine about it? Also did they win bc they were better?

 

[yojaehs]

My point in ^^^ post is that all too often coaches, owners don't do their research on the events they attend. If an event has a reputation of being poorly run, chances are you could hear about it. If you choose to attend that event, it's poorly run AGAIN why complain? Or if you DON'T do your research, attend an event, then complain about it!? I feel at quality events these issues aren't AS bad.

 

[lovecheering]

I have friends that cheer at a local(smaller) gym and everytime they score poorly and place low, their gym owners always uses the excuse that this competition just doesn't like them. My old gym was the same way. It was always that the judges or event producers just have something against our gym. Really?? How about you just didn't put together a high scoring routine?

 

[Panacea]

Having originally come from a very small gym years ago, I never saw this happening! I thought we were great, we won alot! Little did I know, it was because we avoided almost every competition the big gyms attended and went to every obscure competition in the area!

I guess it could happen, if the teams were pretty much equal and the judges could nudge a score a bit. But usually, I think the most talented team wins. Sometimes I don't agree with certain outcomes but I don't see it as a big gym/small gym issue.

 

[XtremeWpg]

I'm a judge in a small cheerleading market in Canada. I think the idea that the "big names" win over smaller programs is true here only in sense that the big names have coaches and athletes who have put in the work to be educated in their choreography, skills and what the judges want to see. Our judging director coaches 2 "big names" in our city. Do her teams win? Yes, they do, because they deserve to, not because of who they are.

I agree with making scores public, but not the comments. But people also need to remember, judges are human, and we do make mistakes and yes, it does sometimes have an effect on the results, but that's all part of being in a judged sport. We try, but we are humans who sometimes give a 7/15 instead of a 9/15 that you felt you deserve! I think that coaches need to be educated on the sheets that they're being judged on, and in turn, they need to educate their athletes so that they aren't disappointed! I guess I look at judging as, I'm not comparing Team A to Team B. They're compared to the score sheet only. Let the sheets and the deductions sort them out in the long run.