Newbie: Xtremespirit Kalahari Controversy

[MaxeyJewels]

I was at the XtremeSpirit Kalahari competition this weekend. I was very excited to see Top Gun performing even though it meant the gym my children belonged to wouldn't end up with a paid bid to Worlds. Top Gun's day 1 performance was NOT what I was expecting. I have seen Top Gun perform at Jamfest and Worlds as well as on YouTube and always find myself impressed. On day 1, they had several falls, bobbles, and a couple of tumbling touchdowns. How their performance resulted in a score of 191.71 is questionable.

In addition, a parent from our gym wanted to buy the day 1 video to view Top Gun's performance and was told that they were no longer selling the DVD due to a "discrepancy". This doesn't make sense to me. I wish I had recorded the day 1 performance. The only way for anyone that wasn't at the competition to believe Top Gun's performance wasn't up par is to see it.

With that said, their day 2 performance was AMAZING! Not a single fall, bobble, or tumbling touchdown. They had impressive energy throughout their routine. Had Top Gun performed on both days like they did day 2, I would say with complete confidence that they earned that paid bid. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

 

[Kadee]

I was at the XtremeSpirit Kalahari competition this weekend. I was very excited to see Top Gun performing even though it meant the gym my children belonged to wouldn't end up with a paid bid to Worlds. Top Gun's day 1 performance was NOTwhat I was expecting. I have seen Top Gun perform at Jamfest and Worlds as well as on YouTube and always find myself impressed. On day 1, they had several falls, bobbles, and a couple of tumbling touchdowns. How their performance resulted in a score of 191.71 is questionable.

In addition, a parent from our gym wanted to buy the day 1 video to view Top Gun's performance and was told that they were no longer selling the DVD due to a "discrepancy". This doesn't make sense to me. I wish I had recorded the day 1 performance. The only way for anyone that wasn't at the competition to believe Top Gun's performance wasn't up par is to see it.

With that said, their day 2 performance was AMAZING! Not a single fall, bobble, or tumbling touchdown. They had impressive energy throughout their routine. Had Top Gun performed on both days like they did day 2, I would say with complete confidence that they earned that paid bid. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

 

[Kadee]

I found Top Gun's performance from Day 1 on YouTube. No offense to Top Gun but it is kind of hard to believe the judges could have missed their deductions for falls and bobbles. We went to WSF and the Worlds judges were very careful about that stuff. They watched videos to double check. actually day 2 Top Gun did have 2 tumbling falls, 1 on a jump to tuck and one running tumbling pass to the front right.

 

[MaxeyJewels]

This video confirms their Day 1 performance was not impressive and yet they still got 191.71. When I look at the deduction score sheets posted on XtremeSpirt's website, it is impossible for them to have that score. I would love to have a judge explain how this is possible.

 

[ChrisAndino]

The score doesn't add up to what they showcased, that is true...but overall top gun was hundreds times better than all the othet teams so maybe instead of giving the other team really bad scores and giving top gun a low score, the judges wanted to boost other teams confidence. Top gun is amazing, they cleaned it up day 2 and will continue to clean it up by worlds. thats all i gotta say. world champs 2012

 

[retiredl5cheer]

The score doesn't add up to what they showcased, that is true...but overall top gun was hundreds times better than all the othet teams so maybe instead of giving the other team really bad scores and giving top gun a low score, the judges wanted to boost other teams confidence. Top gun is amazing, they cleaned it up day 2 and will continue to clean it up by worlds. thats all i gotta say. world champs 2012

They can't do that though. That's tailoring scores to one team which would also be known as biased judging. I'm not trying to take anything away from Top Gun and I only know what I have heard on this thread but this seems sketchy.

 

[Deleted member 14477]

I agree! The controversy is not the fault of Top Gun at all, but it is caused by the unprofessional manner in which XS handled this entire event. It is a compilation of unorganized warm-ups, scheduling issues, and the treatment they gave to this team (which again is not the fault of TG). Teams entered this competition defeated in their minds regardless of their effort after witnessing the treatment the staff gave to TG. They were the only team that the floor was cleared for, staff came out to move people away from the floor for this team only (they were definetely not the only team who stepped off the floor), and the staff went up to the judges table to videotape on their camera phones. The staff in general was unprofessional when they were asked for assistance (if they were even available because majority of the time a staff member could not be found), the person sitting at warm-ups "check in" just moved a paper towards me when I asked a question and looked away. Competitions such as WSF and Jamfest Indy are HUGE competitions and I have never been treated differently in comparison to big name teams. If this whole issue is due to a business move to promote more competition, then professionalism should also be considered because a successful business is professional in their work and appearance.
However, I was very impressed by Indiana Ultimate! I can't wait to go to JamFest and see all of the teams there! This season is definetely going to be an interesting one and I'm looking forward to it for sure!

 

[MaxeyJewels]

I agree that the controversy is owned by XS and in no way should it reflect poorly against Top Gun. Hower I disagree that Top Gun was hundreds of times better than the other teams. Look at the scores of Indiana Ultimate 185.19, Planet Spirit 182.52, and Heat Athletics 185.32. While these teams didn't have perfect execution on either day, they all had amazing routines and athletes. You don't come that close to Top Gun without amazing routines and athletics. Let's not diminish what the "at large bid" teams accomplished by saying Top Gun was hundreds of times better.

 

[Deleted member 15]

I would love to have a judge explain how this is possible.

I've never judged an Xtreme Spirit event, but generally judges sign an agreement saying they won't discuss an event so you probably won't be able to get a judge that was there to say anything.

 

[ChrisAndino]

ok...i think everyone can agree...top gun deserved the paid bid. if we are going to base it on the overall most difficult routine...and by dofficulty i don't mean only stunting because they weren't the most difficult there. But by everything from their amazing dance, innovative choreography that no one else surpasses, their creativity in jump sequence and loading into stunts and their impressive tumbling which was still the best of the competition and you can tell it was watered down. They deserved it and the allegations are just that, allegations and rumors...nothing more. Its been put on the record that its NOT true. So lets all chill out and stop stealing from their well deserved win. They are student athletes just like the rest of us. Congratulations to the Top Gun IO5 team.

 

[MaxeyJewels]

I agree that Top Gun's routine was overall the most difficult. But with difficulty you run the risk of not being able to execute, which is what happened on Day 1 for Top Gun. A team doesn't deserve a World's Bid because they had the most difficult routine but couldn't execute. If the performance they gave on Day 1 (191.71) was anything like their performance on Day 2 (194.68), then without question they deserved to win.

I have been involved with All-Star cheer for 5 years with 3 of them as a coach. While it's been said that the majority of the cheer audience is uneducated in how the scoring system works, that couldn't be farther from the truth. Last night I sat down with a colleague, who is a UCA staff member that has judged hundreds competitions and has been a member on the Safety Regulations Board for 5 years. This is what we reviewed... In the 2nd set of partner stunts there are 2 failed attempts on their transition where the flyer flips over the back of her base. For the sake of arugment, I'll only give them 1 deduction for that one (-.5). There is a drop during the 2nd partner stunt (-1) as well as an obvious bobble (-.5). In the pyramid, there is a fall in the back where the flyer was suppose to fly over the top of the center brace (-5). There is a 2nd fall in the pyramid with their full-up on the right side (-5). And finally there is a drop at the very end of the pyramid (-1). These deductions add up to -13 points. Now, if I take these -13 points from their overall score they have a score of 373.39.

XS is the company that created the deduction system. The deductions that I've outlined above are based on the definitions within the XS deduction score sheet (see below). These deductions are based on allegations or rumors. They are based on Top Gun's actual performance the first day.









Stunt Bobble:

Shaky, unsteady stunt, balance check, loss of body position. (-.5)






Stunt Drop:


Any of the above resulting in flyer coming down to a cradle. (-1)





Stunt Fall:

Any of the above resulting in any member hitting the ground. (-5)





Pyramid Bobble:

Shaky, unsteady pyramid, balance check, loss of body position, timing off or pyramid not making
connection. (-.5)




Pyramid Drop:

Any of the above resulting in flyer coming down to a cradle. (-1)









Pyramid Fall:

Any of the above resulting in any member hitting the ground (-5)

 

[Kailee T]

I know one gym talked to the Xtreme Spirit director after day one.

 

[celebrity10]

I was there last weekend, and none of the coaches or other athletes agreed with the scoring. But I know they also had problems with the scoring last year. Last year was all about hiting. I guess this year was all about the skill.

 

[Emily Jane]

There's an explanation from one of the event directors (CandC5p) about half way down the page http://forum.fierceboard.com/threads/xtreme-spirit-wisconson-dells.20367/page-11
But if you're too lazy to read the entire post, this is what he said about Top Guns scoring;

"On Day 1 of the competition, all of the level 5 teams had mistakes and deductions. Not one single level 5 team had zero deductions. There were teams with up to 9 points in deductions, some teams had just -1.5 in deductions. Most teams had 3-6 points in deductions though. Top Gun had -3.5 points in deductions. I did not come up with the criteria for how many points should be deducted for what... Xtreme Spirit had that in place years ago before I started working for them. I just followed what their deduction scales are and applied them to all the teams and was consistent with all the teams from levels 1-5 all weekend long. Top Gun had 3 drops in their routine on Day 1... one in their 2nd stunt sequence, and two at the end of their pyramid... the Day 1 video shows that clear as day. Someone on here said 5 or 6 drops... I guess some people are not only uneducated in cheerleading, but they are also uneducated on basic math skills. Top Gun's 3 drops were each 1 point in deductions (3 points). They also had a noticeable bobble in that 2nd stunt sequence which received the -.5 deduction (totaling 3.5). The other minor bobble in the stunt, and the mishap in the pyramid were taken off their execution scores in those categories. We were consistent with that for every team. If a bobble was minor and not extremely shaky or noticeable, teams did not receive a deduction for it, they just got their execution score lowered. If a team dropped a stunt and the flyer landed on the ground and it was a total wipeout, the deduction was 5 points... same if a tumbler ate carpet.. 5 points. A hands down in tumbling is 1 point. Like I said, I didn't make the values for deductions... I'm not responsible for that. But the deductions for every team of the entire weekend were fair and consistent according to the Xtreme Spirit Deductions grid.

Now, on the difficulty scores... which is where the lack of education comes into play even more. There is a big misconception in our industry that stunts make up most (if not all) of the score sheet. People think if a team does a stunt with high difficulty, they deserve to beat a team with little stunt difficulty... forgetting about the other elements of a scoresheet. That becomes a problem, because now coaches believe their teams should be winning if they have a full up immediate/tick tock/high to high/double up... and another team doesn't have that difficulty. They forget that there is standing tumbling, running tumbling, EXECUTION of all tumbling (AKA, bent leg fulls and doubles, or 1 1/2's that are trying to be doubles, with sloppy landings and incomplete spins is not something ANYONE wants to see), choreography, jumps, tumbling out of jumps, pyramids, dance, transitions, formations, creativity, overall impression, sportsmanship..... you all get the point. .. Many of the teams this past weekend had very strong, difficult stunts. There were several teams doing tick tocks, full up immediates, 1 1/2 ups, etc. Those teams scored very well on difficulty. Did they score well on execution? The ones that executed their stunts with strong stability did.... but many of them were shaky, dropped, etc. Top Gun was certainly not the most difficult stunting team. They scored somewhat in the mid/average range. Their 2nd stunt sequence was not very difficult, but the unassisted (most of them) coed stunts in their first sequence were. Many people overlooked that. USASF recently sent out the grid for how to range the difficulty of coed stunting. The stunt Top Gun did in their first sequence is in the 85-90 percentile of that difficulty... No teams were performing unassisted coed stunts at that level or (most importantly) of that quantity. But the other teams were doing difficult group stunts which made most of them outscore Top Gun in stunt difficulty overall... but not by a landslide or anything. Now, the thing people seem to fail to notice. Top Gun's tumbling (both standing and running) was FAR more difficult than EVERY team there, it was better executed, and the % of the team throwing tumbling was much higher than the other teams. That is not an opinion, that is a fact. Anyone with knowledge on tumbling can testify to that. Therefore, Top Gun's tumbling scores were substantially higher than the other teams. Now we have the pyramid section. Top Gun had a great pyramid. It made sense, it hit the score sheet, it had some creative elements to it... it scored very well. I don't believe it was the highest scoring pyramid of the weekend, but it was up there. Jumps... their jump sequence is very difficult, I don't care what anyone says! They spin one and a half times while performing 4 jumps, and throw tucks out of them. It was absolutely the most difficult jump sequence of the weekend. Now, they didn't score as high in execution because some girls did tuck jumps out of them and some of the back row jumps were lower than level. Overall though, they had one of the highest scores for jumps... deservingly so. Now, the extra stuff that people forget about has to be scored.... which are the things Top Gun is known for and admired for in the industry. Choreography: they had the best choreography without a doubt. They always present things in a new fresh way and always play with different formations and transitions. Now-a-days, cheer routines are getting so redundant and boring and skill-based only. Teams are literally walking to a formation, and throwing their skills... and then walking to the next formation with maybe a couple motions... and throwing more skills... and then walking to the next formation, and throwing more skills. There is so little innovation and creativity in choreography, but Top Gun never fails to step it up with their choreography and thats one thing other programs should learn from them, instead of verbally attacking them. Any coach out there can make sure an athlete doesn't cross center in a transition, just walk clean, add a couple motions, and then throw your skills when you get there. Top Gun coaches (as well as many other amazing coaches out there) don't take that monotonous approach. ... Their dance was awesome as well and was the talk of the competition because again, they brought something new with taking the bows out of the girls hair which went perfect with their dance song as well. Not to mention the actual dance was great and performed very well by their athletes. They scored very high on that as well ..... All of these "other" areas of the scoresheet (which is nearly 1/4 of the scoresheet) is what gave Top Gun the clear lead over the other teams that attended. If coaches paid more attention to that part of the scoresheet and also focused on overall execution of their routines, their scores would have reflected it and they would have probably been happier with their overall scores and placements."

 

[LabbyGirlMOM]

I was not at this competition but teams from my gym were and all I have heard is how unprofessional this event was and how we will never go back to one of their events