All-Star S/o Release Discussion Re: Worlds Athletes

[King]

Maybe you could enlighten us on that, because apparently that Top 1% was important enough to the industry for an entire waiver system to be developed to protect the gym owners.
Further, if what ACEDAD refers to is correct, it actually only has to do with a group of vagabond Level 5s, meaning a fraction of that top 1%.

A rule that only applies to the top 1% in one area that has the most issues... that doesn't make sense? 99% of kids in cheerleading (so level 1-4 and non worlds bound level 5 teams) are not affected by this rule. And, even then, it is for one competition. You are talking about a very small selection of athletes. And it isn't like a child isn't allowed to leave a program THEN go cheer somewhere else on a level 1-4 or non worlds bound team.

I think everyone is thinking this rule is more than it is. How many kids does this ACTUALLY affect? We realize Senior Level 3 this won't matter for, yes?

 

[Just-a-Mom]

Maybe you could enlighten us on that, because apparently that Top 1% was important enough to the industry for an entire waiver system to be developed to protect the gym owners.
Further, if what ACEDAD refers to is correct, it actually only has to do with a group of vagabond Level 5s, meaning a fraction of that top 1%.

There's a reason you're my BFF. I think it's posts like this.

 

[shadow]

Out of curiousity, what (if any) restrictions would you put on athletes leaving their teams and joining another?

It is not about saying why you cant, it is about proving why you should. There are valid reasons. USASF should maybe focus on a very short list and make the athlete prove the situation. Moving, show you enrolled in a new school. Financial, prove with canceled checks and a statement. Criminal behavior there would police records and possible mug shots.
I also think no athlete should be allowed to compete with a team until they have been released. The gym my child moved to did this until she had it and I felt it was fair, granted she took a 4 month break before requesting the release.
I do not think you should be able to quit one day and day two be on another team. A waiting period might be a good idea.

 

[King]

Doesn't matter if it's 1%, 1 person or 1 billion. Imagine if the USASF had a rule that said if a level 5 cheerleader decided to leave their team (after competing with them) that team could not compete at Worlds and unless the cheerleader signed a waiver allowing that team to compete.

Right now if a coach/owner assaults a cheerleader and that cheerleader files charges and leaves the gym they have to leave the decision of them competing in the cheer worlds equivalent of the Super Bowl to the person who assaulted them. That isn't power over someone??

The issue with your assault example is that ANYONE can file charges. Take to court over anything. How do you police who is lying and who is telling the truth? What if the child faked the whole assault? A whole group of kids decided to lie about something so they could all leave and destroy their old program?

If after going through the courts and someone is found guilty of assault then we could look at it. But usually that whole process takes longer than 6 months.... after the deadline. So would it matter then?

A lot of the problems that people are bringing up have just as many holes in them. But here are the things I do know:

Crappy business owners may have a short term gain by not allowing people to leave (for selfish reasons) but those businesses are not sustainable and not allowing someone to leave for a 'bad' reason will end up hurting their business. Long term they will see a decrease in business.

It is actually not as easy as just saying 'you can't go'. Why? Because people raise big stinks about not getting released, even when they shouldn't. How many people in today's day and age just walk off quietly into that good night? So as a gym owner you are faced with if you are truly not going to release someone you will have backlash unless your reasoning is right (and you tell everyone about it).

The system itself is self regulating. And, the knowledge that it is hard to leave a gym mid season (remember this is ONLY for Worlds teams) keeps people more honest and doesn't promote gym hopping. And yes, there will be some people who get gipped a little in the beginning and along the way but there will always be unfortunate people who are affected by a rule. The percentage is very low of those actually affected, therefor it is a good rule.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

A rule that only applies to the top 1% in one area that has the most issues... that doesn't make sense? 99% of kids in cheerleading (so level 1-4 and non worlds bound level 5 teams) are not affected by this rule. And, even then, it is for one competition. You are talking about a very small selection of athletes. And it isn't like a child isn't allowed to leave a program THEN go cheer somewhere else on a level 1-4 or non worlds bound team.

I think everyone is thinking this rule is more than it is. How many kids does this ACTUALLY affect? We realize Senior Level 3 this won't matter for, yes?

But there has been talk since last year about making this rule "across the board" - my understanding is that the athlete registration process was the first step in this. So it IS important to get the details hammered out NOW. Can you imagine the rule, in its present state, applying to all levels/all comps - essentially a rule saying you can't go to another gym and compete at all until the following season? Now, you know I'm all for the rule in general. But I have to say that it needs some work before it would be ok with me for it to apply to all levels/all comps. I love the rule's intent. But I just keep thinking back to ICC. Or when I moved to Chicago. What if Andrea from Fame was a horrible person (lol yeah right) and wouldn't sign a waiver for my kids, just to be ugly? So here I am 1000 miles away and my kids couldn't cheer - obviously not the end of the world, but a simple appeals process would fix that:

Example 1:
Mom: Dear USASF, I moved a thousand miles away.
USASF: Dear Gym, Does she owe you money? Any other reason?
Gym: No, we're just mean.
USASF: Dear Just-a-Mom, Your kids are released.
USASF: Dear Gym, You lose. Please pay $50 admin fee for this process.

Example 2:
Mom: Dear USASF, Our gym won't release us.
USASF: Dear Gym, does she owe you money? Is there any other reason?
Gym: yes, she owes us $367. Here's the documentation. No other reason.
USASF: Dear Mom, Please pay the $367. Once that is paid please provide us a receipt. After that we'll send you a letter releasing your cp. Also please send us $50 admin fees for this process with your receipt.


*****Obviously I'm using Fame because that's our old gym and this is just hypothetical. They would NEVER do this because they are the greatest gym on earth. <3

In order to make the appeals process a little less backed up make it so certain criteria has to be met:
1. You can't owe the old gym money. Don't waste anyone's time if this is the case...seriously.
2. You must have moved X miles FURTHER away. Meaning it doesn't matter how far you were commuting. Pick a number and make it the rule. Example - Make it 25 miles. If you were driving 5 miles and now it's 30, you can appeal. If you were driving 130 miles and now it's 155 you can appeal.
3. Illegal activity - not "yucky" activity. ILLEGAL. Drinking with minors, drugs, statutory rape ALL fall into this category. And I would have to say you shouldn't have to wait for a conviction - just an allegation (jeez waiting for a conviction in our judicial system your kids will be college athletes before that would happen). I understand that is a slippery slope. But when it comes to my kids I don't care. Run your gym in a way that there can't even be an allegation. NO ADULT COACH SHOULD EVERY BE WITH MINOR ATHLETES ALONE EVER. EVER. ANOTHER ADULT SHOULD ALWAYS BE PRESENT. If you run your gym with this rule 24/7/365 then there is no opportunity for a child to make false allegations.
4. Physical danger to your child - such as the gym isn't following USASF safety guidelines. Example: "They were painting in the gym so our coach made us practice kick doubles in the parking lot."

(That last one I'm 50/50 on - that's one I feel you'd know WAY before first comp)

 

[King]

But there has been talk since last year about making this rule "across the board" - my understanding is that the athlete registration process was the first step in this. So it IS important to get the details hammered out NOW. Can you imagine the rule, in its present state, applying to all levels/all comps - essentially a rule saying you can't go to another gym and compete at all until the following season? Now, you know I'm all for the rule in general. But I have to say that it needs some work before it would be ok with me for it to apply to all levels/all comps. I love the rule's intent. But I just keep thinking back to ICC. Or when I moved to Chicago. What if Andrea from Fame was a horrible person (lol yeah right) and wouldn't sign a waiver for my kids, just to be ugly? So here I am 1000 miles away and my kids couldn't cheer - obviously not the end of the world, but a simple appeals process would fix that:

Example 1:
Mom: Dear USASF, I moved a thousand miles away.
USASF: Dear Gym, Does she owe you money? Any other reason?
Gym: No, we're just mean.
USASF: Dear Just-a-Mom, Your kids are released.
USASF: Dear Gym, You lose. Please pay $50 admin fee for this process.

Example 2:
Mom: Dear USASF, Our gym won't release us.
USASF: Dear Gym, does she owe you money? Is there any other reason?
Gym: yes, she owes us $367. Here's the documentation. No other reason.
USASF: Dear Mom, Please pay the $367. Once that is paid please provide us a receipt. After that we'll send you a letter releasing your cp. Also please send us $50 admin fees for this process with your receipt.


*****Obviously I'm using Fame because that's our old gym and this is just hypothetical. They would NEVER do this because they are the greatest gym on earth. <3

In order to make the appeals process a little less backed up make it so certain criteria has to be met:
1. You can't owe the old gym money. Don't waste anyone's time if this is the case...seriously.
2. You must have moved X miles FURTHER away. Meaning it doesn't matter how far you were commuting. Pick a number and make it the rule. Example - Make it 25 miles. If you were driving 5 miles and now it's 30, you can appeal. If you were driving 130 miles and now it's 155 you can appeal.
3. Illegal activity - not "yucky" activity. ILLEGAL. Drinking with minors, drugs, statutory rape ALL fall into this category. And I would have to say you shouldn't have to wait for a conviction - just an allegation (jeez waiting for a conviction in our judicial system your kids will be college athletes before that would happen). I understand that is a slippery slope. But when it comes to my kids I don't care. Run your gym in a way that there can't even be an allegation. NO ADULT COACH SHOULD EVERY BE WITH MINOR ATHLETES ALONE EVER. EVER. ANOTHER ADULT SHOULD ALWAYS BE PRESENT. If you run your gym with this rule 24/7/365 then there is no opportunity for a child to make false allegations.
4. Physical danger to your child - such as the gym isn't following USASF safety guidelines. Example: "They were painting in the gym so our coach made us practice kick doubles in the parking lot."

(That last one I'm 50/50 on - that's one I feel you'd know WAY before first comp)

There is fear of it being across the board, but at the moment that is only a board fear (that I have heard of). There is no current way to even enforce this rule (manpower and even a tracking system) at all the other levels. As well because there is NO Worlds there is no end punishment to enforce this rule. The USASF runs one competition, and that ONE competition that you are not allowed to compete at if you break the rule doesn't affect most other people. How the heck would this even be enforced?

I think everyone is jumping from A to C. People, it is just WORLDs.

 

[King]

I'll put it another way. While being members of the USASF, all EP's are not run by the USASF. The USASF has a rule for their ONE competition. This isn't even a rule that Sally can't randomly level gym A for gym B and get a bid with gym B without being released... Sally just won't be able to go to Worlds.

I feel like I am arguing with a wall here people. You do get it is only Worlds. Only Worlds. Only Worlds. Only Worlds. If the USASF starts running all the other competitions then get concerned. But in reality they can barely get scoresheets out early enough in the season let alone enforce this PAST the Worlds divisions.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

There is fear of it being across the board, but at the moment that is only a board fear (that I have heard of). There is no current way to even enforce this rule (manpower and even a tracking system) at all the other levels. As well because there is NO Worlds there is no end punishment to enforce this rule. The USASF runs one competition, and that ONE competition that you are not allowed to compete at if you break the rule doesn't affect most other people. How the heck would this even be enforced?

I think everyone is jumping from A to C. People, it is just WORLDs.

Touche. I always think "board fear" means "real fear" - you guys could post that the World really is ending on 12/21/2012 and despite the fact that I've been laughing at it for years I'd suddenly start building a bunker and hoarding canned goods.

For now I am in no danger of my cp's going to Worlds so I'll just continue in my role as "Just-a-Devil's-Advocate, Mom of Youth 1 and Senior 3 cp's who can gym hop to our little hearts' content...

 

[shadow]

kingston do you tell your kids at your gym "its only worlds"?

 

[King]

kingston do you tell your kids at your gym "its only worlds"?

What do you mean?

 

[Just-a-Mom]

kingston do you tell your kids at your gym "its only worlds"?

LOL I hear you, but I think he was directing that at people like me whose kids are NEVER going to Worlds. As in "Hey Just-a-Mom why are you so pressed with this rule that will NEVER affect you???"

 

[King]

LOL I hear you, but I think he was directing that at people like me whose kids are NEVER going to Worlds. As in "Hey Just-a-Mom why are you so pressed with this rule that will NEVER affect you???"

Correct. Only as in the only competition. Not only as in it's Only a competition called worlds, who cares.

 

[shadow]

Why do I feel like I am being sold a used car? The best one on the lot but still one that doesn't get the job done. It only works most of the time but can't guarantee you always get to your destination. It's got a lot of problems but its the best you are being sold. I won't buy it until some major work has been done.

 

[REA Dad]

The issue with your assault example is that ANYONE can file charges. Take to court over anything. How do you police who is lying and who is telling the truth? What if the child faked the whole assault? A whole group of kids decided to lie about something so they could all leave and destroy their old program?

You are correct, ANYONE can lie and/or cheat, so why should the owner get the benefit of doubt over the parent/cheerleader? The question is why does the rule assume the gym owner, who might not even have children, has higher ethical and moral values than a parent? To the best of my knowledge this is not the case for any other sport that involves a club/travel/all star team. As long as you pay you are free to change. Actually it's called capitalism.

To break it down to the most simple form: a cheer gym is nothing more than a service provider for parents and children. Why should I have to continue to pay you for horrible service and why should you have a right to make me continue to pay for said horrible service OR you can hold my ability to compete hostage?

Example: if I shop at Walmart for 5 years and then suddenly they change their policies and customer service should Walmart be allowed to stop me from going to shop at Target and should I not be allowed to shop for a year?

Don't forget, I'm against gym hopping and believe children should finish what they start but sometimes it isn't the cheerleader or parent who is at fault and I'm just trying to show why the rule is far from perfect in it's current state. If gym owners and coaches had a much tougher path to obtaining USASF certifications and those standards became mandatory for the gym to compete at USASF events it would make the rule much easier to swallow in it's current state.

 

[King]

Why do I feel like I am being sold a used car? The best one on the lot but still one that doesn't get the job done. It only works most of the time but can't guarantee you always get to your destination. It's got a lot of problems but its the best you are being sold. I won't buy it until some major work has been done.

Welcome to politics. It is hard for most people to understand but most rules that are pragmatic and provide the best results are usually the least worst solutions.