All-Star Team Punishment?

[stuntaholic]

While it is interesting that you have had some success with your team using this method, I am wondering about the actual topic which was the disagreement amongst coaches over the team punishment style of coaching. Many people have commented on the negative effects this type of coaching can bring about. Some people defended this style. Has this made any impact on your decisions to use this as a motivator? I ask because that was really the topic you posted as the original poster and it is interesting to see if people can really look for differing opinions than their own and then really consider them.

I would say these posts didn't really change my opinion on team punishment. I didn't really see a whole lot of fact based arguments that were legitimate to the situation. A lot of what I got out of this was basically don't just do punishment or don't do punishment at all. I basically gathered that there should be a reward system. However, we already have a reward system in place.

We will be doing less team punishment though. We were looking for a way to combine academics and performance in school with athletics in a simple manner. Our school recently started doing a point system that reflects their behavior in school and our football team began using a points system that combined the schools with behavior in athletics. The coach really likes the system and I have decided to give it a try. The system has minimal team punishment in comparison with what we were currently doing. While I would like to do a little more team punishment than what this system suggests I am going to give it a try for our fall cheer season and see what I think.

I do value the opinions on this board I just didn't see many fact based arguments that fit my situation. A lot of the arguments were more emotion based than fact based. And the one fact based argument that I do remember reading basically said that punishment of any form wasn't a good thing and based on what I have read and heard speaking to many different coaches in different sports, this is basically only good in theory and not good in application.

Again thank you for the responses and if anyone else has anything else to add I would love to hear it.

 

[cupieqt]

I would say these posts didn't really change my opinion on team punishment. I didn't really see a whole lot of fact based arguments that were legitimate to the situation. A lot of what I got out of this was basically don't just do punishment or don't do punishment at all. I basically gathered that there should be a reward system. However, we already have a reward system in place.

We will be doing less team punishment though. We were looking for a way to combine academics and performance in school with athletics in a simple manner. Our school recently started doing a point system that reflects their behavior in school and our football team began using a points system that combined the schools with behavior in athletics. The coach really likes the system and I have decided to give it a try. The system has minimal team punishment in comparison with what we were currently doing. While I would like to do a little more team punishment than what this system suggests I am going to give it a try for our fall cheer season and see what I think.

I do value the opinions on this board I just didn't see many fact based arguments that fit my situation. A lot of the arguments were more emotion based than fact based. And the one fact based argument that I do remember reading basically said that punishment of any form wasn't a good thing and based on what I have read and heard speaking to many different coaches in different sports, this is basically only good in theory and not good in application.

Again thank you for the responses and if anyone else has anything else to add I would love to hear it.

If facts are what you're looking for there is an excellent DVD called "The Power of Positive Coaching" by Dr. Jason Selk. Go to gymsmarts.com to buy it.

ETA: here's a link to an article you might find interesting http://usagym.org/pages/home/publications/technique/2004/3/internallymotivated.pdf

(If you're interested in facts and not just validation that you're right and the other coach is wrong this will be very helpful).


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[Just-a-Mom]

So I wanted to get everyone's thought on this situation but also team punishment in general.

For reference, your original post, asking for "thoughts" (not facts and research) from everyone.

I would say these posts didn't really change my opinion on team punishment. I didn't really see a whole lot of fact based arguments that were legitimate to the situation. A lot of what I got out of this was basically don't just do punishment or don't do punishment at all. I basically gathered that there should be a reward system. However, we already have a reward system in place.

I do value the opinions on this board I just didn't see many fact based arguments that fit my situation. A lot of the arguments were more emotion based than fact based.

Ok. You are NOT going to like this, but here goes... I am going to say it looks like you didn't actually want thoughts, you just wanted validation. I'm thinking that if everyone had said they love team punishment and you're the best coach and the other coach is wrong, your response would have been "Thanks guys! I knew I could trust coaches on here to know best!"

But because what you got was the opposite, you've decided thoughts aren't actually what you wanted after all. Did everyone quote a bunch of studies and research? No, but they gave you information based on their personal knowledge of the topic. Sources from this thread: High school student opinion? Valuable - a high school student sure knows what works with them and what doesn't. Coaches? Of course they can tell what's been successful for them, probably more reliable than some study or textbook anyway. Teachers and even a high school principal weighed in...but no study, so they must not know what they're talking about. Parents and older kids...meh, maybe not experts on high school team dynamics, but still knowledgeable about teenage brains.

Sorry but all in all this thread takes me back to 3 year old bhs. If validation is what you want, fierce board ain't the place. I think you discounted a lot of valuable information in this thread simply because it didn't fit into your original thought.

Either way good luck to you and your team this season. I hope you and other coach can make this season a successful one.


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[Cheer Dad]

I feel like this is kind of a shot at me but I won't take it like that. In order to learn the drill the athletes needed to put a minimal amount of time in on their own or with teammates. The 3 of the 5 athletes that did not know it came in on their own time to work with other athletes to learn the drill. 2 of the 5 athletes came in on their own time and worked the drill with me.

I don't think it was a shot. I was wondering how it became resolved since there seemed to be confusion. As coaches we cannot always make understand what we are looking for and sometimes it is the other athletes ways of explaining that make the connection to those having trouble. A good coach uses all resources available in making the team and individual function.

I know you are looking for facts to support either method of punishment but with so many differing opinions I don't think anyone will have a definitive answer. An argument can be made for anything. In my experience (20 yrs coaching various youth sports) the form of punishment/reward must be catered to the individual/group being addressed. Some respond well to a group thing while others don't. Also, for what it is worth I typically have found that group punishment for the peer pressure aspect works best for behavioral conformity rather than for performance. Competition among the athletes can help with performance.

 

[Carmen]

I don't know if this will change your opinion or anything but at my gym we alternate between team and individual punishment. For example, if someone wasn't listening during jumps and ended up just standing there because they didn't know what to do from not listening our coaches would call them out and make them jump alone. If it continued they'd be taken out to do conditioning which is fair because the whole team except one person was listening and behaving well. If we were all talking and didn't know what to do we'd all have to condition. We do get a fair amount of chances before we have to condition though and the only time we really have to condition for individual mistakes are if multiple people are making little mistakes that could be corrected by listening or if someone didn't throw something that they were supposed to in a full-out.

The one situation where we always condition for an individual/small group mistake is in stunting when someone drops their flyer. No matter what if a flyer drops we must condition because dropping someone is so dangerous.

There wasn't much fact in there mostly what my gym does but that's my experience with punishment in general.


They call me a flyer, but first you have to throw.

 

[stuntaholic]

If facts are what you're looking for there is an excellent DVD called "The Power of Positive Coaching" by Dr. Jason Selk. Go to gymsmarts.com to buy it.

ETA: here's a link to an article you might find interesting http://usagym.org/pages/home/publications/technique/2004/3/internallymotivated.pdf

(If you're interested in facts and not just validation that you're right and the other coach is wrong this will be very helpful).


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That is an interesting article. I will have to look into the DVD you are talking about.

 

[quitthedrama]

Some of the best advice I received was "don't ask the question if you don't want the answer." It seems fitting for this thread

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[quietmom]

I am highly disappointed in the lack of grumpy cat pictures in this post. I am almost so disappointed that I may make my dogs run laps as punishment........ Or not......

 

[embersglow]

I know this is mostly over in terms of discussion but one of the big issues I have with team punishment, aside from all the other issues already raised, is what happens when the athlete genuinely cannot do the skill?

If one group is consistently dropping I sincerely doubt it's because they're deliberately defying you and want to make everyone condition. It seems, to me, an infinitely better resolution to get in there and actually COACH; find the problem then correct the problem rather than just punish the entire team. They may need it explaining in a different way, they may be struggling with the counts or they may just not have the strength needed to fill that position and need to be moved.

If someone is struggling with technique or strength, a mental block or anything at all I just cannot see why you would punish them for that?! From personal experience it is thoroughly humiliating to be called out in front of the entire team AND then know that they're all suffering because of a physical or psychological deficiency that is purely your's. It does absolutely nothing to change the behaviour because the behaviour isn't a deliberate action that merits punishment. It breeds frustration and low self esteem.

I'm hoping that made any kind of sense.


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[Cheer Dad]

I know this is mostly over in terms of discussion but one of the big issues I have with team punishment, aside from all the other issues already raised, is what happens when the athlete genuinely cannot do the skill?

If one group is consistently dropping I sincerely doubt it's because they're deliberately defying you and want to make everyone condition. It seems, to me, an infinitely better resolution to get in there and actually COACH; find the problem then correct the problem rather than just punish the entire team. They may need it explaining in a different way, they may be struggling with the counts or they may just not have the strength needed to fill that position and need to be moved.

If someone is struggling with technique or strength, a mental block or anything at all I just cannot see why you would punish them for that?! From personal experience it is thoroughly humiliating to be called out in front of the entire team AND then know that they're all suffering because of a physical or psychological deficiency that is purely your's. It does absolutely nothing to change the behaviour because the behaviour isn't a deliberate action that merits punishment. It breeds frustration and low self esteem.

I'm hoping that made any kind of sense.


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Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Cheer Dad]

@embersglow, you reminded me of a coach that used team punishment as a way to get rid of weaker players. Either the player would break down adn do anything the coach said or some of the teammates would pressure that kid into quitting. Coach thought of it as win-win situation since he either got his way or someone else make the kid quit so in his mind it was not because of him.

Individual punishment was typically reserved for the discipline issues or the better athletes so there was no resentment from the rest of the team.

 

[embersglow]

@embersglow, you reminded me of a coach that used team punishment as a way to get rid of weaker players. Either the player would break down adn do anything the coach said or some of the teammates would pressure that kid into quitting. Coach thought of it as win-win situation since he either got his way or someone else make the kid quit so in his mind it was not because of him.

Individual punishment was typically reserved for the discipline issues or the better athletes so there was no resentment from the rest of the team.

That is just horrendous. Maybe I'm too soft, but I'd rather be the way I am than hurt people.

My coach for the past two years seemed to enjoy humiliating us every practice if we struggled. All being aged 18+ there were very little discipline issues to deal with, so all the punishment, judgement and what ended up being downright bitchy comments came from stunting errors. Most of these athletes are coming into cheer for the very first time and hitting level 3/4 stunts is a real achievement, we would never be genuinely praised or rewarded for these instances. People left because of her attitude, people would cry both in and out of practice and we all hated coming to cheer. Punishment isn't always just physical.

I've taken over coaching for next year and it's going to take a hell of a lot of work to build up a positive atmosphere because of the damage punishment has done.


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[Cheer Dad]

That is just horrendous. Maybe I'm too soft, but I'd rather be the way I am than hurt people.

My coach for the past two years seemed to enjoy humiliating us every practice if we struggled. All being aged 18+ there were very little discipline issues to deal with, so all the punishment, judgement and what ended up being downright bitchy comments came from stunting errors. Most of these athletes are coming into cheer for the very first time and hitting level 3/4 stunts is a real achievement, we would never be genuinely praised or rewarded for these instances. People left because of her attitude, people would cry both in and out of practice and we all hated coming to cheer. Punishment isn't always just physical.

I've taken over coaching for next year and it's going to take a hell of a lot of work to build up a positive atmosphere because of the damage punishment has done.


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you are right, punishment is not only just physical. It was usually the mental factor that caused the kids to ultimately quit.

Sorry about your last coach. Doesn't sound like a very nice person and congrats to your inexperienced kids for hitting level 3/4 stunts like that.

 

[stuntaholic]

I know this is mostly over in terms of discussion but one of the big issues I have with team punishment, aside from all the other issues already raised, is what happens when the athlete genuinely cannot do the skill?

If one group is consistently dropping I sincerely doubt it's because they're deliberately defying you and want to make everyone condition. It seems, to me, an infinitely better resolution to get in there and actually COACH; find the problem then correct the problem rather than just punish the entire team. They may need it explaining in a different way, they may be struggling with the counts or they may just not have the strength needed to fill that position and need to be moved.

If someone is struggling with technique or strength, a mental block or anything at all I just cannot see why you would punish them for that?! From personal experience it is thoroughly humiliating to be called out in front of the entire team AND then know that they're all suffering because of a physical or psychological deficiency that is purely your's. It does absolutely nothing to change the behaviour because the behaviour isn't a deliberate action that merits punishment. It breeds frustration and low self esteem.

I'm hoping that made any kind of sense.


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So basically what you are saying is if it is something that they are capable of doing then team punishment makes sense. However, if it is something they are capable of doing then don't use team punishment. Is that correct?

 

[stuntaholic]

I don't think it was a shot. I was wondering how it became resolved since there seemed to be confusion. As coaches we cannot always make understand what we are looking for and sometimes it is the other athletes ways of explaining that make the connection to those having trouble. A good coach uses all resources available in making the team and individual function.

I know you are looking for facts to support either method of punishment but with so many differing opinions I don't think anyone will have a definitive answer. An argument can be made for anything. In my experience (20 yrs coaching various youth sports) the form of punishment/reward must be catered to the individual/group being addressed. Some respond well to a group thing while others don't. Also, for what it is worth I typically have found that group punishment for the peer pressure aspect works best for behavioral conformity rather than for performance. Competition among the athletes can help with performance.

In general I understand what you are saying about behavioral conformity but I am not sure exactly what all falls under that. Obviously things such as disrespect or messing around is a behavior issue. Would you consider being tardy to practice or not showing up to practice a behavior issue?