All-Star Your Daughter Won't Fly Forever

[BlueCat]

I disagree w this completely. There has been plenty of teams who had high difficulty stunts & pyramids w/ regular sized flyers.

You are free to disagree. Yes, there are examples of particular groups or even teams that are able to do difficult stunts/pyramids with a "normal" sized person as a flyer. That doesn't mean that there isn't a general correlation between difficulty and the mass of the flyer. (or reach of the back spot, or physical strength of the bases, etc.)

To me that is like suggesting that height doesn't matter in the NBA by pointing to 5'3" Muggsy Bogues. Of course there are examples that don't fit the general trend. That doesn't change the general trend. (For what it is worth, Muggsy Bogues would not have been an NBA player if he and his parents had insisted he would only participate if they made him a center.)

I agree that it sounds much better to say that size/height/mass/body type/etc should have no impact on a person's potential to reach elite level in any particular athletic endeavor. In many ways, I wish that were true. However, physics simply doesn't care about political correctness or what is "fair".

 

[catlady]

But is it healthier? If a flyer is happy to base perhaps the transition is smoother, but is it really in the ethos of sport to say "Susie you're too heavy to fly you're basing/backing/fronting or going home." Rather than encouraging your ground crew to do strength training which is long term good for their health providing they are of the correct age?

"Susie you're too heavy to fly you're basing/backing/fronting or going home," is/was not an appropriate way to handle the situation, and "health" is important for the entire stunt group not just the flyer. Cheerleading is a game of physics and ratios, I wish it were addressed more in those terms. It wouldn't necessarily make it easier when you are that person that isn't physically working out in a stunt group, but hopefully it would make it less personal if you know it is easier to change a flyer rather than 2 bases and a back.

 

[Keep_Believing]

Most on the boards already know BlueCat owns Cheer Athletics , one of the top Cheer gyms in the Country. Think he knows his Cheer stuff.

 

[Keep_Believing]

It was nicely brought up to me in a PM that my yougest CP quit a team after the season was already going. Will share she didn't quit. She was removed due to me not meeting my financial responsibilities. Her stunts were going awesome. She had beast bases. I got significantly behind on payments , was given a date to pay by or be removed. I couldn't come up with it. She loves that gym, team, and Coaches. I make more money in the school year due to being a Deaf Ed Itinerant teacher. I drive a lot , my mileage checks are over 1,000 a month. I don't get that extra money in the Summer. They weren't willing to wait till end of September when my first mileage check kicked in. They are running a business so I understand and respect their decision.

My oldest CP use to fly and was made a base. It ended up being a great change and blessing in disguise for her. I am not fly or die. I just know cheer gyms are not loyal to you when you don't meet their needs because in the end it is a business. I will never drink the be loyal no matter what kool aide. I do believe in doing your best to keep your commitment for the season.

* I want to add we have been very fortunate that all of the gyms we have been a part of have had amazing Coaches and staff.

 

[meetmeat_themat]

Performing in a sport is different than lifting weights to train for it, and puts different stresses on the body.

Yes, gymnastics sees the same problem, and from what I have read, putting kids in the weight room only makes it worse.

healthier? That's a broad question. A lighter flyer definitely puts less stress on a base's body. These kids are already highly conditioned athletes in most cases. At what point is asking them to strength train MORE so that Sally can stay in the air detrimental to their bodies and their performance in the sport?

And at what point is asking Susie to diet more to stay in the position she loves and works hard for detrimental to her body and performance in the sport? Just a hypothetical question, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would know more than I haha. I experienced it myself and I wished I could just strength train to keep my spot, but no amount of cardio and restrictive dieting could make me the right 'size' or 'aesthetic' for the coaches. I was hitting stunts with a stunt group, then taken out and replaced with a flyer who was lighter and suddenly the stunts weren't hitting, and in fact never did hit. I am by far not the most talented flyer (I wouldn't even go as far as to say talented) but I would hate to think how I would feel if I was worlds.

You are free to disagree. Yes, there are examples of particular groups or even teams that are able to do difficult stunts/pyramids with a "normal" sized person as a flyer. That doesn't mean that there isn't a general correlation between difficulty and the mass of the flyer. (or reach of the back spot, or physical strength of the bases, etc.)

To me that is suggesting that being tall isn't an advantage in the NBA by pointing to 5'3" Muggsy Bogues. Of course there are examples that don't fit the general trend. That doesn't change the general trend. (For what it is worth, Muggsy Bogues would not have been an NBA player if he and his parents had insisted he would only participate if they made him the center.)

I agree that it sounds much better to say that size/height/mass/body type/etc should have no impact on a person's potential to reach elite level in any particular athletic endeavor. In many ways, I wish that were true. However, physics simply doesn't care about political correctness or what is "fair".

This has a very good point. A 5ft2 basketball player would have to work extremely hard to be as good as an average 6ft2 player. However at least here the ethos would be on technique, and essentially working your butt off to be as good as your teammates, rather than your dress size and mass which most people cannot healthily control to the degree required. I do agree that your team should come before your stunt group placement at least for that season. If you were a good tumbler even more so.

"Susie you're too heavy to fly you're basing/backing/fronting or going home," is/was not an appropriate way to handle the situation, and "health" is important for the entire stunt group not just the flyer. Cheerleading is a game of physics and ratios, I wish it were addressed more in those terms. It wouldn't necessarily make it easier when you are that person that isn't physically working out in a stunt group, but hopefully it would make it less personal if you know it is easier to change a flyer rather than 2 bases and a back.

Hypothetical question, would those bases and back not benefit from (safe and controlled, emphasis here! haha) conditioning using weights to replicate what they are doing with a human being who is liable to not be as predictable at times. Ballet dancers, gymasts etc at senior level all weight train, why not cheerleaders? It may also help prevent those horrid tendon injuries which we often are plagued with. Yet again, I'm no doctor, just a concerned onlooker/ex athlete.

 

[cheer25mom]

And at what point is asking Susie to diet more to stay in the position she loves and works hard for detrimental to her body and performance in the sport? Just a hypothetical question, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would know more than I haha. I experienced it myself and I wished I could just strength train to keep my spot, but no amount of cardio and restrictive dieting could make me the right 'size' or 'aesthetic' for the coaches. I was hitting stunts with a stunt group, then taken out and replaced with a flyer who was lighter and suddenly the stunts weren't hitting, and in fact never did hit. I am by far not the most talented flyer (I wouldn't even go as far as to say talented) but I would hate to think how I would feel if I was worlds.



This has a very good point. A 5ft2 basketball player would have to work extremely hard to be as good as an average 6ft2 player. However at least here the ethos would be on technique, and essentially working your butt off to be as good as your teammates, rather than your dress size and mass which most people cannot healthily control to the degree required. I do agree that your team should come before your stunt group placement at least for that season. If you were a good tumbler even more so.


Hypothetical question, would those bases and back not benefit from (safe and controlled, emphasis here! haha) conditioning using weights to replicate what they are doing with a human being who is liable to not be as predictable at times. Ballet dancers, gymasts etc at senior level all weight train, why not cheerleaders? It may also help prevent those horrid tendon injuries which we often are plagued with. Yet again, I'm no doctor, just a concerned onlooker/ex athlete.

No one should ask a flyer to diet, and flying should not be so important that it devastates a child tho be pulled . There is an alternative: BASING. It shouldn't be such a big deal to be asked to be a base.

My CP would MUCH rather go back to backspotting. When she was the oldest and tallest on a youth team, that worked. It doesn't now at 5'1" on a senior team. She isn't "devastated". She isn't trying to stretch herself to get that spot back. Flyers shouldn't freak when they come out of the air. Not flying is not the end of the world, and the fact of the matter is that some people NEED to come out of the air. Making their bases stronger isn't going to fix that. A base placed under a too big flyer doesn't have an alternative place to go. My kid has suffered through that. Her body has taken the abuse, and she has been injured because someone just couldn't handle coming out of the air. She couldn't "healthily control" her ability to lift this girl.

In your particular situation, maybe you could have stayed in the air, maybe not. It shouldn't be the kind of issue that it is however, and I think that issue stems from the attention and emphasis placed on the coveted flyer position. Cheer culture needs to STOP glorifying the flyer at the expense of the bases and backs, then it won't be such a big deal when they come out of the air.

No, those basses wouldn't benefit from the kind of weight training necessary to keep a too big flyer in the air. My daughter is also a ballet dancer, and the DON'T weight train. They use very light weights, like 2 lb ankle weights VERY occasionally and under strict guidance. They are dangerous in a lot of dance situations. Her dance teacher doesn't allow serious weight training as part of dance instruction because it puts too much stress on their bodies. Light weights only. Basically no more that the average person concerned with personal fitness would do in the gym.

 

[retiredl5cheer]

No one should ask a flyer to diet, and flying should not be so important that it devastates a child tho be pulled . There is an alternative: BASING. It shouldn't be such a big deal to be asked to be a base.

My CP would MUCH rather go back to backspotting. When she was the oldest and tallest on a youth team, that worked. It doesn't now at 5'1" on a senior team. She isn't "devastated". She isn't trying to stretch herself to get that spot back. Flyers shouldn't freak when they come out of the air. Not flying is not the end of the world, and the fact of the matter is that some people NEED to come out of the air. Making their bases stronger isn't going to fix that. A base placed under a too big flyer doesn't have an alternative place to go. My kid has suffered through that. Her body has taken the abuse, and she has been injured because someone just couldn't handle coming out of the air. She couldn't "healthily control" her ability to lift this girl.

AMEN! If an athlete quits cheerleading because she's pulled from the air, she was never in it for the right reasons. Cheer is a TEAM sport. Bases are just as important as flyers and vice versa. The reality is that size matters. Height matters. Weight matters. Athletes need to accept the role they're given and work hard. Do they have to be thrilled about it? No, but they need to accept it and do their best. If flying is the "only option," then I don't want that athlete on my team.

 

[_MRB]

Cheer culture needs to STOP glorifying the flyer at the expense of the bases and backs, then it won't be such a big deal when they come out of the air.

THISSSSSSS.
But I don't think it's so much as this when it comes to leaving the air. Think about it this way.
You've been flying all of your life and then you get taken out of the air and made a base, your experiencing extreme difficulty in basing toward the point where it's either get it together or you're off the team. This actually happens. Replacements are made easily.

 

[cheer25mom]

THISSSSSSS.
But I don't think it's so much as this when it comes to leaving the air. Think about it this way.
You've been flying all of your life and then you get taken out of the air and made a base, your experiencing extreme difficulty in basing toward the point where it's either get it together or you're off the team. This actually happens. Replacements are made easily.

Coaches should be helping make this transition, and ideally it should be made at the beginning of the season so that they are learning stunts a little along.

A lot of flyers don't really WANT to learn to base either, and that makes them harder to teach. think "I'm too weak to do this" ... this is too hard"ect. If you have the core strength and body control to fly, and the arm strength to tumble transitioning to basing an appropriately sized flyer shouldn't be excessively difficult... if you are willing to put in the effort necessary and have the proper instruction.

 

[Pebbles49]

@BlueCat, I love your basketball analogy, but it falls short when comparing this situation... In basketball, the too short athlete doesn't required others to execute and perform their job... A too short basketball player can work on skills - speed drills and work on muscles to help with leaping higher...

But flyers absolutely cannot do or execute their job without the total aid of the bases and backspots... So being a flyer, somewhat put an athlete in a no win situation and I think, it is the adults, imo, that makes the situation worse because of their expectation for their child to be a "flyer or die" mentality... Most children that love a sport, tend to be willing to try other things and not limit themselves... Matter of fact, I used to see the children on my daughter's teams curious about other stunt positions and will be asking questions, but maybe these are isolated cases....

PS: I think, bases and back spots can do strength training at any age. I still remembered my daughter doing gazillion pushups and handstand pushups, against a wall, and pulls ups and she never used weights...She also used the ropes to strengthen her arms and upper body and these are common exercises that gymnasts do... But I noticed these exercises are not commonly done in cheer conditioning. ..

 

[_MRB]

Coaches should be helping make this transition, and ideally it should be made at the beginning of the season so that they are learning stunts a little along.

A lot of flyers don't really WANT to learn to base either, and that makes them harder to teach. think "I'm too weak to do this" ... this is too hard"ect. If you have the core strength and body control to fly, and the arm strength to tumble transitioning to basing an appropriately sized flyer shouldn't be excessively difficult... if you are willing to put in the effort necessary and have the proper instruction.

Some people actually struggle though some people don't get it as fast as others. It sucks, honesty.

 

[cheer25mom]

PS: I think, bases and back spots can do strength training at any age. I still remembered my daughter doing gazillion pushups and handstand pushups, against a wall, and pulls ups and she never used weights...She also used the ropes to strengthen her arms and upper body and these are common exercises that gymnasts do... But I noticed these exercises are not commonly done in cheer conditioning. ..

Our gym uses these exercises in team conditioning which is done at every practice during the summer, and rotated during comp season, They also do legs; wall sits, leg lifts for jumps ect and core conditioning.

 

[cheer25mom]

Some people actually struggle though some people don't get it as fast as others. It sucks, honesty.

Yes, everyone learns at a different pace but if they get adequate help and put in adequate effort, they should get there.

 

[badgergal]

What I wish our gym did was cross-train the flyers/bases more on teams where almost all kids are the same size. Have one set of kids in pyrimad and one set in elites or something or at least mixing it up somehow. I think it would better prepare everyone for growth spurts and position changes. When Susie grows 5 inches in a year and has never "grabbed a foot" and it thrown into basing level 4 for their first basing experience ever, it just seems somewhat preventable.

 

[catlady]

Hypothetical question, would those bases and back not benefit from (safe and controlled, emphasis here! haha) conditioning using weights to replicate what they are doing with a human being who is liable to not be as predictable at times. Ballet dancers, gymasts etc at senior level all weight train, why not cheerleaders? It may also help prevent those horrid tendon injuries which we often are plagued with. Yet again, I'm no doctor, just a concerned onlooker/ex athlete.

I think you are addressing the wrong person. I never said it wouldn't be beneficial to do any type of training. What I did say is "health" is important for everyone and cheer is a game of physics and ratios. If your bases and back are not strong enough or do not have the stamina to get through a routine with a certain flyer, it is going to be a faster fix to change out the flyer instead of asking and hoping they all do weight training and get results fast enough before the season begins. But, here's another reality, weight conditioning is done with light weights with multiple reps or heavy weights with fewer reps. Even heavy lifters train with lighter weights to save their joints. What you all do is hard and you all have to live with those bodies for a long time.