All-Star General Legality Discussion: "the Grey Area"

[F!ERCE]

So far this season, we've already seen lots of "Hmmm..."-worthy elements in routines, from ones that are/are borderline illegal but not glaringly unsafe (the Brandon toe-touch up, the old Senior Elite inverted transition), to those that are legal but make us almost wish they weren't (the TG pyramid element). And then of course the GT prone-or-not debate last year...

So how do we deal with this "grey area"? You obviously can't deduct a team for something that is legal (even if it's looks incredibly dangerous), but is it a judge's place to say "hey, maybe reconsider this element, it looks a little risky"? And as a coach, if you received such a compliment, would you re-evaluate the skill in question? Or leave it simply because it is indeed - technically - legal?

I just sometimes question the priorities of coaches when I see a skill or element that looks like it could, with the slip of one finger, result in catastrophic injury. While I don't think any coach would intentionally put their athletes in a risky situation that the athlete wasn't ready for, I feel that the consideration of possible accidents (that may occur due to fatigue, an off-day, an awkward hand placement or even - as someone said - a sweaty limb) is not as deep as it should be.

I feel like we're starting to forget that the rules aren't simply in place to prevent injury when something goes right; they're there to minimize the severity of the repercussions when something goes wrong. Is there any solution to "the grey area" that could simultaneously keep our athletes safe and not compromise the creativity and innovation that make our industry thrive?

 

[drewpate]

Well I don't consider anything grey area, it's either legal or not. After watching top gun, that skill was sick but very risky. And legal. I also don't know how the the rule could be worded that would make what they do illegal and keep releases to prone in general legal (which I really think should be kept legal as they can be performed safely)

 

[yojaehs]

I can't speak on behalf of all programs but as for Brandon I know that anything questionable is videoed and sent in for review, and was explained, so why it is still being questioned I'm not sure. I think all coaches should do so.

 

[ACEDAD]

I can't speak on behalf of all programs but as for Brandon I know that anything questionable is videoed and sent in for review, and was explained, so why it is still being questioned I'm not sure. I think all coaches should do so.

Just because Les says it's legal doesn't mean something shouldn't be questioned. The specific rule with the Brandon stunt is stupid and should be changed.

 

[kristenthegreat]

I can't speak on behalf of all programs but as for Brandon I know that anything questionable is videoed and sent in for review, and was explained, so why it is still being questioned I'm not sure. I think all coaches should do so.

I think she's trying to go BEYOND that..is it legal? Yes, it is. That doesn't mean there isn't a risk involved, and it's legality is hinged on how the bases feel that day. We're talking beyond whether or not its legal- is it safe? Even if it's technically legal, do judges put tabs on things that might be a safety risk? (This goes for a good chunk of the stuff she's mentioned..)

 

[F!ERCE]

drewpate , that's exactly my point, actually. While the TG stunt is clearly legal, it is still a scary skill...what do we do when there's a skill that falls under that same umbrella of technically-okay, practically-iffy? Do we ignore it because of technicality? Or is there something that can be done? I'm not saying this specifically about TG...just in general.

yojaehs , like kristenthegreat said, I have no question as to whether or not the stunt is legal, but rather more about our system of rules itself and the existing loopholes and grey areas.

Further, do we need a better system than the one-man-confirmation? And what do we do with skills that don't technically break a rule, but break the spirit/purpose of a rule (like last year when we were defining/re-defining prone strictly as a 180 degree position for GT)?

ETA: I don't mean for this to be a discussion of specific coaches, skills, teams, etc., but rather whether or not our legality and deduction system is flawed or not and something that may be able to be done to work toward a better system. I personally don't think it's perfect, but I myself have no suggestions as to how to make it better...

 

[ztaprincess]

I can't speak on behalf of all programs but as for Brandon I know that anything questionable is videoed and sent in for review, and was explained, so why it is still being questioned I'm not sure. I think all coaches should do so.

Those of us that questioned it were curious and now that we know then we understand that it is legal. What people are now wondering is what happens when at one competition it is called legal while at another it could be called illegal. ACEDAD mentioned in the brandon thread that it is close to impossible to fight it if a set of judges decides to say it is illegal at a competition because how are you going to measure it? The rule is silly because how do you keep it in check? The stunt can be legal at one competition but at the next if the bases throw too hard it can be illegal. Why make a rule that has a measurement involved when you can't measure it when being performed at a competition.

 

[yojaehs]

I 100% agree with everything everyone is saying in regards to legality. I also don't feel that anyone was accusing Brandon of being "unsafe" I just wanted to clarify that when it comes to our athletes safety we take it seriously that was my only point. Sorry I'm on my phone so I didn't get to clearly say what I wanted. I thank those that push the envelope but I also appreciate those that look out for safety.

 

[PCMegan]

Not saying this mean at all.... (that't my disclaimer) because I love Brandon. But I still don't even understand how the toe touch to low lib is legal? I truly don't. Can someone post a legitimate answer so I can better understand.

 

[njallday]

Not saying this mean at all.... (that't my disclaimer) because I love Brandon. But I still don't even understand how the toe touch to low lib is legal? I truly don't. Can someone post a legitimate answer so I can better understand.

http://forum.fierceboard.com/threads/brandon-2012-stunt-illegal.20233/ this thread has since been locked, but it is 100% explained.

 

[SharkDad]

Fierce the intelligence with which you look at the sport is impressive. I am sure a reason why you got accepted to such a great school.

In my job we do risk management everyday because the penalties for making big mistakes or little mistakes that can have big consequences and sometimes can be catastrophic such as the examples in cheer you describe. We study how mistakes have happened in the past and can possibly happen in the future to do everything we can to prevent them or at least reduce their risk.

I have been thinking for a while that cheer can use some widley understood and used method of risk assesement. Maybe with a Cheer Risk Management strategy that everyone learns and accepts then we can be looking for the next big accident in an effort to prevent it.

I'm delighted you brought up the subject.

 

[PCMegan]

I agree with the Cheer Risk Management theory. When a skill like this is considered legal (which by the rules I guess it is) you have to look further into the PROGRESSION and EVOLUTION OF THE SKILL. Can you imagine what could come next from this skill? I wont even say. If you look at it that way.... the possibilities are terrifying and VERY dangerous.

 

[yojaehs]

I think the issues become HOW a skill is trained. Yes there are "grey area's" but if they are properly trained they can be executed safely. I think the "risk management" falls on that of the coach. Ex. I don't know how to safely coach the element in TG's pyramid, therefore I would not attempt to ask my kids to do so, BUT, if I learned how to safely teach the skill (as I am 100% sure Victor and his staff do) then I see no problem with a skill that some may view as "grey/scary". Just bc it's not the norm doesn't always mean its unsafe. Another example, I saw a video of an acro trio doing a double back and catching underneath the armpit, now I and many "cheer coaches" aren't qualified to teach that skill, and it looks "crazy, scary, dangerous" but when properly trained the skill is amazing to witness. Another example, Japan.

 

[cheerinfo]

Not saying this mean at all.... (that't my disclaimer) because I love Brandon. But I still don't even understand how the toe touch to low lib is legal? I truly don't. Can someone post a legitimate answer so I can better understand.

In case the link supplied to you doesn't answer, let me try. The release above 18 inches rule says that if thefeet, knees whatever are lifted, the 18 inches ISN'T measured from the bottom of where the feet ARE, it is measured 18 inches from where the bottom of the feet WOULD BE if they legs were straight down. So while those toe touches appear to be 3 feet above the bases, that is in the toe touch position. Picture where their feet would be if they were not in the toe touch position, but simply tossed up with their legs straight down. THAT is where the measurement is. I know...it's weird, and almost impossible for a safety judge to know EXACTLY where the feet would be, but I would say Brandon's is legal because if they had their legs straight down, they honestly would not be all that high above the bases. It's the position that makes it look SO high. Did that ramble? Or did that explain it at all? LOL

 

[imrichhowboutu]

My issue isn't necessarily the gray area in legalities. It is the Black and white. I don't understand how people can read the rules and then do something that is clearly stated as illegal. Half of the things below I could show to someone with no cheer knowledge and have them rule on the legality.

Here are several issues that a few coaches seem to have ignored this year.

• Extended stunts require spots
• you need 3 catchers for braced inversions
• catchers can't be involved in other choreography and can't move
• downward inversions can't travel down while inverted
• level 4 downward inversions can't go above prep level