All-Star Is It The Judges Fault That There Is No Change At The Top

[Coach Troy]

If I tell you that it is all politics, will that keep you from spending month after month studying scoresheets & videos to figure out the minute details that separate the winners from the others? If so, then yes - it is all political.

Not political just human nature...
I grew up knowing this team was te standard and so no other can ever wear the title of "clean", "difficult", "fierce performers" etc etc

And that perception does not change

 

[Mclovin]

I think everyone's definition of "clean" is different. I read on these boards all weekend about how Team A and Team B were so clean and so perfect and you watch the video and displays otherwise.

Personally in the medium coed division I thought that Twist and Shout and Gym Tyme should have been 2nd and 3rd. I thought South Elite was GREAT in stunts, but their other areas were not as strong compared to other programs.

I agree about South Elite. However, I just don't think SOT was THAT good to beat T&S and GT with a fall. Now had they hit clean, I wouldn't be even debating this...

 

[King]

Ill admit I was surprised SOT won with a drop, but I wasn't shocked. They were just that good and that perfect everywhere else.


I still would rather work on the universal scoresheets and do the idea of difficulty by video and execution and impression live. Then afterwards release all the scores of every category.

 

[Coach Troy]

Lastly, in your response to socratesofcheer I disagree. I think if all those coaches went to a Suzie's Allstars, they could turn it into a winning gym. How do you think they started? They read and understand the scoresheets, learn, study, practice, and talk to others in the industry. They didn't just get to the top overnight. It's a process, and they've mastered it.

Everyone knows the score sheet....but no one knows how it will be applied from one panel to the next...from one division to the next.
Here is a real life comparison....... So I was told that difficulty would be established by the judges baised on thier view of execution I.E. - teams that are deemed with strong execution will be awarded high difficulty scores regardless of the skill performed.
So it is opinion and not the skill that rules and therefore if one program is viewed as clean then no matter skill level or performance mistakes that program that "name" will score high.

 

[tucknduck]

You are correct that 1-2 stunt groups are part of the team, but you are being judged on what the majority of the team is doing. When groups bobble or fall, then deductions take that into account. Otherwise you are being judged on what the remaining groups are doing.

Ok. That explains it. As I mentioned earlier, I'm no expert at the technicalities of the sport nor do I have a trained eye. I have some idea what I'm looking at observing it as a cheer parent and a spectator for a number of years so I go by that. I know baseball. Where as the layman for example sees baseball as a picher and catcher and seven other fielders standing around, every player on the field has a job on every pitch and ball put in play regardess of the position you play. One fielder standing around or not thinking ahead what he's going to do on the next pitch will result in the breakdown of a play and a less than favorable outcome is the result.

 

[fiercerando88]

Everyone knows the score sheet....but no one knows how it will be applied from one panel to the next...from one division to the next.
Here is a real life comparison....... So I was told that difficulty would be established by the judges baised on thier view of execution I.E. - teams that are deemed with strong execution will be awarded high difficulty scores regardless of the skill performed.
So it is opinion and not the skill that rules and therefore if one program is viewed as clean then no matter skill level or performance mistakes that program that "name" will score high.

Well I can't answer to why someone told you that or if it actually happened. That just seems a little ridiculous but what do I know. Just stating my opinions on your other statements.

 

[SarahS]

Everyone knows the score sheet....but no one knows how it will be applied from one panel to the next...from one division to the next.
Here is a real life comparison....... So I was told that difficulty would be established by the judges baised on thier view of execution I.E. - teams that are deemed with strong execution will be awarded high difficulty scores regardless of the skill performed.
So it is opinion and not the skill that rules and therefore if one program is viewed as clean then no matter skill level or performance mistakes that program that "name" will score high.

Were these worlds-caliber judges? I, too, have been told that difficulty and execution are, and should be, linked... but this was at a rinky-dink local rec competition, and I'm not sure that is a standard perception amongst judges.


I'd argue that the video replay for difficulty judging would go a long way to alleviate these problems, too. (Can you tell I'm a big fan of that idea? )

 

[GreatWhite92]

Ill admit I was surprised SOT won with a drop, but I wasn't shocked. They were just that good and that perfect everywhere else.


I still would rather work on the universal scoresheets and do the idea of difficulty by video and execution and impression live. Then afterwards release all the scores of every category.

Thats what I want...then you can't possibly give two teams with the SAME stunt sequence a different score...no matter how its executed it should be the same difficulty score. Now the execution judges can kill you in points while watching live, but it shouldn't effect your difficulty score.

 

[Coach Troy]

Were these worlds-caliber judges? I, too, have been told that difficulty and execution are, and should be, linked... but this was at a rinky-dink local rec competition, and I'm not sure that is a standard perception amongst judges.

It happened on Sunday

 

[NEliteSteven]

I'm also confused at the deductions. Why are some falls, and some are bobbles? Why are some called and some not? That definitely changed some results as well.

 

[socratesofcheer]

The answer is no...

So, just to clarify, if Brad Habermel or Victor Rosario came to your gym and coached your team, the results would be the exact same?

 

[Coach Troy]

So, just to clarify, if Brad Habermel or Victor Rosario came to your gym and coached your team, the results would be the exact same?

That is what I am saying.
Since if you read what I have said I believe that perception is the problem so simply shifting coaches does nothing.

P.S. if either are in the market to relocate Laguna CA is one of the most beautiful places and both are welcomed!!!

 

[Cheeriomom]

Two things: it comes down to ALL areas on the scoresheets, not just stunts.

And, if you are looking for people to judge who have no opinion about TG, World Cup, CA, etc, I would imagine you would have to look under quite a few rocks to find anyone.

 

[p.o.k.]

It is the same thing when you are following a big competition on the Fierceboard - one poster gets on here and says Team A hits and were amazing - and you find yourself sitting in the audience of that competition scratching your head because you saw a fall and touchdowns. I think teams can be viewed through rose colored glasses and sometimes be given the benefit of the doubt on a scoresheet. Perhaps a fall is worth a 5 point deduction (as published) and they are only given 2 - saw this at a huge comp this year. You can always call it what you want to justify your application of points - maybe an early dismount - ha ha. It is subjective and just like a good CPA - you can make 2 and 2 add up to be whatever you want.

 

[Coach Troy]

Two things: it comes down to ALL areas on the scoresheets, not just stunts.

And, if you are looking for people to judge who have no opinion about TG, World Cup, CA, etc, I would imagine you would have to look under quite a few rocks to find anyone.

1..it's never just about one catagory. There at many times I have won the "top half" of the score sheet but lost the "opinion" portion.

2. True that. That's what I've been saying!!