All-Star Sandbagging

[Icon]

I'm surrounded by gyms that Sandbag as their business model. It's frustrating as a Coach to watch a team warmup squad back handsprings and more than half of the team warmup standing and running tucks but then go slaughter Mini 1. I saw a Tiny Prep team with full squad front and back walkovers. Tiny Prep. I actually had to explain to some of my new parents what sandbagging was this weekend after seeing so many examples of it in the lower levels. When you are consistently 8-10 points ahead of the whole division, that's a huge red flag for sandbagging.

 

[AlwaysLearning]

I think a lot of (not all) these issues would be resolved if teams were required to register their division before the season starts. Allow for one div change during the season - up or down - because a team progresses in skill or may realize they don't have the skills to compete in their orig div. If a team earns a bid or changes a div then they must stay in that division until the end of the season. It won't stop everything and may bind some smaller gym's hands, but it will make coaches think twice about creating teams and deciding what division to put them in.

 

[catlady]

That's not stacking, that's level appropriate placement, and really what all gyms should be striving to do.

We will have to agree to disagree. IMO, stacking a deck isn't about having "32" Aces (blatant cheating). It is about strategically placing, or by luck, the high cards fall into your hand.

 

[Michael White]

I think this really boils down to what your gym wants. At a smaller gym, you're forced to take what you can get. My whole cheer life, (started at 20) I've obviously only been able to compete on open teams. I'll tell you, being on a level 5 team with three people that could throw fulls (myself included) kind of sucked. When we dropped down to Open 4 this year, I was happy. Our chances of winning are way more realistic, now is this sandbagging? I don't think so.

At a larger gym, you have the luxury of putting your best athletes on the floor. If your goal is to win, wouldn't you want to put your best athletes on the floor? If the majority of your level 2 team has RH tucks, and you have full team hand springs, it doesn't really make sense to compete as a three, so you "stack" a level 2 team to give your gym the best shot at the win. Now if your full team has RH tucks, I believe that is sandbagging.

 

[emo_wifey]

I'm surrounded by gyms that Sandbag as their business model. It's frustrating as a Coach to watch a team warmup squad back handsprings and more than half of the team warmup standing and running tucks but then go slaughter Mini 1. I saw a Tiny Prep team with full squad front and back walkovers. Tiny Prep. I actually had to explain to some of my new parents what sandbagging was this weekend after seeing so many examples of it in the lower levels. When you are consistently 8-10 points ahead of the whole division, that's a huge red flag for sandbagging.

As a tiny prep parent, that would be frustrating but I also can understand. Right now prep is the only option for CP, but say in a few years she has a BHS but our financial situation hasn't improved much, she'll stay on prep.

It is super frustrating when you go up against teams that max out the difficulty level in prep. CP competed against multiple teams that had solid half extensions when her team isn't even on basic thigh stands yet. But like I said, prep/half year is more about the money then not being ready for a true level 1 team for some people.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

[Cheer0825]

A lot of teams did that but I don't think it can happen anymore. Worlds athletes can't perform at Summit except for on a Level 5 Restricted team. Even then they are limiting the number of Worlds athletes that can perform on a team.

And level 4

 

[klynn64]

They don't even have to be crossovers IMO. If your team is made up of athletes who have skills higher than the level they are competing at, that is sandbagging whether they are on a higher level team or not. If the same team could be competitive at a higher level, then they likely are sandbagging.
And agree with previous posters - this happens in other sports, not just cheer.

Forget crossovers, if you have a team comprised primarily of athletes that based on skills should be performing on a higher level team, you have a stacked team. I recognize why a gym would do this. We all like to win. It makes a gym more profitable. And it's unethical in my opinion. In addition I feel that it's sending the kids the message to win at all costs. They are being shown that unethical is okay if it gets you what you want in the end. We went up against a stacked team one time (L3,4,5 athletes on a L2 team) and I overheard a teammate of my CP telling her Mom at awards (after receiving second place to the stacked team) that it didn't seem fair. An individual from the stacked team overheard and turned to them and said "so, look who has the jacket". Is this what we want to teach our kids?

 

[klynn64]

Actually a Worlds athlete can cross to level 4 at Summit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're right they can. My mind is on NCA right now and at NCA they can only crossover within their same level. Initially with Summit you would see Worlds athletes (or teams of Worlds athletes) competing as L1 and L2. They have tightened the rules some however. Hopefully we won't see that anymore.

 

[klynn64]

My youngest cp is a good example for "stacked" teams. At tryouts next year she will have full skills for level 2 but, she doesn't have any level 3 skills. A level 2 team full of athletes like my youngest, would be "stacked" IMO but, not "sandbagged".

To me, "stacked" teams have athletes that are level appropriate, that have full team skills (possibly even a head grazing running tuck) but, aren't ready to move on to the next level safely. While sandbagging is putting a team together that should absolutely guarantee the win by putting athletes on it with full skills at higher levels.

Stacked teams don't contain level appropriate athletes as in the case of your daughter. Rather they contain athletes with solid skills more suited for a significantly higher level team.

 

[cheer25mom]

Stacked teams don't contain level appropriate athletes as in the case of your daughter. Rather they contain athletes with solid skills more suited for a significantly higher level team.

This is what I consider stacked. A large portion of the athletes have the skills to compete on the next level. Sanbagged does this with a 2-3 level gap.

 

[njallday]

if Lucky 7 can make it to Worlds' small coed semi-finals with an at large bid and 7 athletes, I will not accept any excuses on having to fill a team with crossovers "or the true level X kids couldn't compete." boo hoo. not buying it.

 

[Michael White]

Stacked teams don't contain level appropriate athletes as in the case of your daughter. Rather they contain athletes with solid skills more suited for a significantly higher level team.

I disagree. A sandbagged team would be if the entire team had higher level skills. Here's an example.

There's a gym who is trying to place around 40 athletes onto two teams. In this group, about 30 athletes have round off handspring tucks, about 20 or so of the tucks have solid combination skills, but the rest are working on them. The 10 other girls have solid level 2 skills, but are working on level three skills. This is in an ideal world of course because a team isn't decided only on tumbling, stunting, jumps, etc. are also considered.

By your reasoning, the gym should have two level three teams, but that simply isn't the way to run a gym. You place your strongest 20 combination tucks on one team. You place the rest on a level two team.

Isn't that the way it should be? If you had two level three teams, one would be stacked, and the other would be weak, or if you balance them equally you only have 10 combos per team.

A sandbagged team would be if you took that level 3 team and competed as a level 2.

 

[renaa_rooo]

You're right they can. My mind is on NCA right now and at NCA they can only crossover within their same level. Initially with Summit you would see Worlds athletes (or teams of Worlds athletes) competing as L1 and L2. They have tightened the rules some however. Hopefully we won't see that anymore.

This is an aspect of Summit that I am glad they are trying to fix. From experience I can tell you it's pretty heartbreaking and discouraging to see multiple worlds athletes on the team that beat you out for first, even more so because you just saw them place in the top 3 at worlds the weekend before. & it was only level 2. So I'm definitely glad to see they are trying to stop this from happening.

 

[Lisa Seye]

Somebody help me with the world's crossover to Summit rules
I have heard two interpretations regarding 4.2 teams. (My cp is not on one lol). Anyway, I have been told level 5 world athletes can cross to Summit 4.2 teams. But my interpretation of that rule is they cannot. The only crossover from 4.2 is 2,3 or 4. So if a worlds team has an athlete who wants to cross to a 4.2 team at Summit, which is it? Can or cannot? And can anyone point out the official statement (the one I read is the one that is misinterpreted).

 

[Michael White]

Somebody help me with the world's crossover to Summit rules
I have heard two interpretations regarding 4.2 teams. (My cp is not on one lol). Anyway, I have been told level 5 world athletes can cross to Summit 4.2 teams. But my interpretation of that rule is they cannot. The only crossover from 4.2 is 2,3 or 4. So if a worlds team has an athlete who wants to cross to a 4.2 team at Summit, which is it? Can or cannot? And can anyone point out the official statement (the one I read is the one that is misinterpreted).

From Varsity:

"The MAXIMUM number of individuals allowed to crossover from the 2016 Cheerleading Worlds to The Summit will be 5 athletes per team. Level 5 athletes that competed at Cheerleading Worlds can only cross to level 4 & 5 Summit divisions (Excluded: Level 4.2). Level 6 athletes that competed at Cheerleading Worlds can only cross over to level 5 Summit division."

IMO from reading this, it means a level 5 World's athlete can cross over to 4 and 5, but not 4.2.