All-Star Sandbagging

[MissCongeniality]

If you stack the deck you deliberately place the cards in the deck in a specific manner so that when dealt you alone get the best of all of the cards for your hand in an attempt to guarantee a win.

Wouldn't you agree that your gym/program stacks their teams? If I recall correctly we are/were (since CP is retired) part of the same program and with the talent base this program has... they can and do make teams where almost all (if not all) athletes have very very strong level skill sets at the level they're competing and often many skills for the level above. I mean I know it was that way at our location.

I don't see anything wrong with stacking. I mean who wouldn't want to stack a team with the very best athletes at that level. Sure you could argue that Susie level 3 should possibly be on the 4, but maybe there are already 20 stronger Susies on the 4 and even some alternates.

That said, the program does not sandbag. You will never see the level 3 dropping to level 1 in the name of jackets. Nor will you see them substituting a bunch of higher level athletes onto a lower level qualifying summit team. But stack... heck yes in every sport not just cheer! Who wouldn't want to be THE most competitive team possible.

 

[klynn64]

I disagree. A sandbagged team would be if the entire team had higher level skills. Here's an example.

There's a gym who is trying to place around 40 athletes onto two teams. In this group, about 30 athletes have round off handspring tucks, about 20 or so of the tucks have solid combination skills, but the rest are working on them. The 10 other girls have solid level 2 skills, but are working on level three skills. This is in an ideal world of course because a team isn't decided only on tumbling, stunting, jumps, etc. are also considered.

By your reasoning, the gym should have two level three teams, but that simply isn't the way to run a gym. You place your strongest 20 combination tucks on one team. You place the rest on a level two team.

Isn't that the way it should be? If you had two level three teams, one would be stacked, and the other would be weak, or if you balance them equally you only have 10 combos per team.

A sandbagged team would be if you took that level 3 team and competed as a level 2.

When I said stacked teams don't contain level appropriate athletes I should have further clarified my remark. What I was attempting to say is that you don't have a stacked team if you have a team of level appropriate athletes. I made the remark in response to an individual who identified her CP had L2 skills. But not L3 skills. She felt that for her child to remain on a L2 team next year (despite having no L3 skills) would be deemed stacking. What I was attempting to do was to reassure to her that if you have your L2 athlete on a L2 team it is not stacking. Even if the athlete has all of her L2 skills. I just approached my answer bass ackward.

 

[klynn64]

Wouldn't you agree that your gym/program stacks their teams? If I recall correctly we are/were (since CP is retired) part of the same program and with the talent base this program has... they can and do make teams where almost all (if not all) athletes have very very strong level skill sets at the level they're competing and often many skills for the level above. I mean I know it was that way at our location.

I don't see anything wrong with stacking. I mean who wouldn't want to stack a team with the very best athletes at that level. Sure you could argue that Susie level 3 should possibly be on the 4, but maybe there are already 20 stronger Susies on the 4 and even some alternates.

That said, the program does not sandbag. You will never see the level 3 dropping to level 1 in the name of jackets. Nor will you see them substituting a bunch of higher level athletes onto a lower level qualifying summit team. But stack... heck yes in every sport not just cheer! Who wouldn't want to be THE most competitive team possible.

I would have to say that to the best of my knowledge the teams in our gym contain level appropriate athletes. Some teams I'm more familiar with than others so I can't say this with 100% certainty. But, this is our sixth year at the gym and I haven't seen higher level athletes being placed on lower level teams. There are some athletes that have some of the higher level skills (but not a full complement) and some that don't even have the skills for the level team they are on. You won't ever see a L5 athlete on a L3 or L4 team unless they are a crossover due to injury etc. We don't have a pool of athletes from which to cherry pick a team. The issue comes in to play when you have a youth 4 athlete and you have no youth team. Depending on the athletes age they try to place them as accurately as possible. So maybe a J2 team is all that is available since all higher level teams are senior teams. But they would not be placed on a L2 team for an advantage. Simply because there was nothing else available.

 

[catlady]

If you stack the deck you deliberately place the cards in the deck in a specific manner so that when dealt you alone get the best of all of the cards for your hand in an attempt to guarantee a win.

In cards, you aren't allowed to look at the deck so, yes in cards, stacking is cheating. In creating teams, you are allowed to look at what you have, you don't blindly shuffle and place. If as a coach you have 8 level ones and 12 level two's, you aren't going to meet ratio's to win up against a team that has 20 level two's, the 20 level two's are stacked in comparison. It may turn out the coach with the 8 level ones may say, "we don't have a enough level 1's to create a successful team, tumble this year and come back next tryouts." and pull from their level three's instead to stack against your level two's. That coach deliberately created a team that could "possibly" be successful if he plays his cards correctly because, he stacked the deck in his favor. If you call that sandbagging, then we definitely have different definitions of the word. My definition of sandbagging is when a coach sends his level 1's and 2's walking and replaces them with his 4's and 5's, he just keeps playing the same trump cards over and over.

 

[emo_wifey]

My issue is they shouldn't be a prep team. The prep level is a developmental/fundamental level? Yes or No? if they've mastered full squad tumbling shouldn't they be a regular allstar team not prep?

No. Multiple gyms list prep as a cheaper alternative, shorter year, etc.

Edit: I see others have got this covered

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[Sparkle Mom]

Or when a team competes throughout the season as a Level 4 but just prior to NCA they compete in a no name small competition as Level 2 so that they can compete at NCA as Level 2.

Or when a gym holds a special NCA tryout at their gym and builds a team of Level 2, 3, 4, and 5 athletes to compete only at NCA but as a Level 2 team.

I see a team winning this weekend that certainly only took certain teams because of this!

 

[Stopdroptumble19]

What about when a gym starts out with a youth 1 team and girls on the team primarily have a rough bwo, maybe beginning bhs and some janky roundoff backhandsprings, but progress throughout the season and now have roundoff handspring tucks and solid level 3 skills...but youth 1 team is small (11 girls) and 4 of the girls on the team are not ready to compete as a level 2 stunting wise...sandbagging?

 

[SarahS]

What about when a gym starts out with a youth 1 team and girls on the team primarily have a rough bwo, maybe beginning bhs and some janky roundoff backhandsprings, but progress throughout the season and now have roundoff handspring tucks and solid level 3 skills...but youth 1 team is small (11 girls) and 4 of the girls on the team are not ready to compete as a level 2 stunting wise...sandbagging?

No.

 

[stuntjumptumble]

@everyone sandbagging will always be an issue until the USASF decides to ban crossovers. Which should happen soon. Ok thx bye


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[dawgshow]

What about when a gym starts out with a youth 1 team and girls on the team primarily have a rough bwo, maybe beginning bhs and some janky roundoff backhandsprings, but progress throughout the season and now have roundoff handspring tucks and solid level 3 skills...but youth 1 team is small (11 girls) and 4 of the girls on the team are not ready to compete as a level 2 stunting wise...sandbagging?

Nope. That's progression. I'd expect many teams to be at the top of their level/ ready to enter next level by this point in the season.

 

[Lablover]

@everyone sandbagging will always be an issue until the USASF decides to ban crossovers. Which should happen soon. Ok thx bye


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Sandbagging isn't something that only happens with gyms that use crossovers. It's just more noticeable with those gyms/athletes. A gym could make a team with no crossovers that all have higher level skills.

 

[Official OWECheer]

@everyone sandbagging will always be an issue until the USASF decides to ban crossovers. Which should happen soon. Ok thx bye


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I say they should be limited, not banned completely.

 

[123jump4!]

@everyone sandbagging will always be an issue until the USASF decides to ban crossovers. Which should happen soon. Ok thx bye

Sandbagging isn't something that only happens with gyms that use crossovers. It's just more noticeable with those gyms/athletes. A gym could make a team with no crossovers that all have higher level skills.

You're both right I think. Sandbagging could still happen but probably would be less if crossovers were banned. Because then if level 4/5 Susie could only compete on level 2 she might say no thanks and pick another gym. Or just compete on level 4 or 5.

I say they should be limited, not banned completely.

Yes I probably agree with this, and maybe different rules for the D2 division?

 

[Rahcheermom!]

I agree with limited not banned. Our gym is not big on crossovers, but in the event someone gets injured for example it is a useful tool.


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[Bellabooker]

I think they should do the up/down one level at all comps.