All-Star Small Gym Divisions

[CoachTamara]

ok NEVER said it doesnt count. I am probably referring to teams that pick this division purposely because they think its easier. I guess its the same thing as gyms that put their teams in lower divisions to get the win. That is more my problem with this division.
Every year we add more and more divisions. I just feel its getting out of hand. Where does it stop.

I don't think you get to choose to be in this division in most cases. As a coach, they look at our gym, see how many teams and girls we have, and we are automatically put in small gym if the competition is big enough to divide them. I've never had the option to choose.

 

[coach12]

I don't think you get to choose to be in this division in most cases. As a coach, they look at our gym, see how many teams and girls we have, and we are automatically put in small gym if the competition is big enough to divide them. I've never had the option to choose.

I never heard of that. How would the competition company know for sure how many kids you have in your gym. For example in our gym we have 7 teams, but for the major traveling nationals (plane), only 3 of our teams do those comps. So it couldnt be by how many teams are registered at a comp. Does the usasf have a record of how many kids you have in your gym?? What if you started as a small gym, but during the year more kids joined; or maybe you added some half year teams. How can you keep up with that?
Another thing - i know some teams that went to comps as small gym, when i know for a fact they have close to 100 kids in their gym.

 

[Mingo_VCE]

I've been thinking about this forever, and i really agree that there shouldn't be small gym divisions because it really limits your competition, and it really is an easy win. But you have also have to stop and think about it being a business too, because if competitions didn't have small gym and large gym then less teams would go which means less money for the company. For example if NCA didn't have small gym divisions at nationals i am sure a lot of those teams wouldn't go to NCA which ultimately is losing money for the company. But i know a lot of strong small gyms that can hang with the large gyms, i think they should get rid of small gym division because it pushes athletes to work harder and it gives the athletes goals to strive to be at their fullest potential. thats just my opinion though.

 

[CGAcheer]

There still is a need for this division becasue when you have more stunt groups on the mat, you get more points. If teams only had three stunt group (small gym) and they went against a team with 5 stunt groups (large gym) the large gym would get more points becasue they have more groups in the air.

Thats not the way the score sheets work and that is more of a large team vs small team discussion rather than a large gym vs small gym discussion

 

[CoachTamara]

I never heard of that. How would the competition company know for sure how many kids you have in your gym. For example in our gym we have 7 teams, but for the major traveling nationals (plane), only 3 of our teams do those comps. So it couldnt be by how many teams are registered at a comp. Does the usasf have a record of how many kids you have in your gym?? What if you started as a small gym, but during the year more kids joined; or maybe you added some half year teams. How can you keep up with that?
Another thing - i know some teams that went to comps as small gym, when i know for a fact they have close to 100 kids in their gym.

Small gym is considered under 75 athletes. It is usually pretty obvious whether you are over or under based on the teams you have, especially since I would go out on a limb and say that small gyms do not bring certain teams to certain competitions. They travel as a group since they are smaller and usually have crossovers between those teams.
There is always a lot of communication between event producers and gyms. If you are a cheerleader, you have no idea how many phone calls go back and forth before we register for a competition, and they are all fully aware of how many kids we have. If you have seven teams at your gym, I'm sure they don't even think about putting you in small gym. If you register two or three teams, many times they'll ask if that is your entire program or just a few select teams.

 

[JulieP]

The difference is that Allstar has levels, so if you level your teams appropriately then there is no reason that a small gym can't compete with a larger gym.

I can see both sides of this. I coach at a small gym, but we always want to be competitive with the big gyms out there. Since we're in Wisconsin, there's generally not enough teams to split into small gym and large gym at the competitions we go to so it's not really an issue for us except when we go to the US Finals and maybe 1 of our Chicago comps. I do have to say that it can be VERY difficult for us small gyms to compete with the big gyms- especially at comps like the US Finals. We had our first senior team this year, and it was a huge mix of ages and talents. The ages on the team ranged from 11-18, and the tumbling ranged from level 1 to level 4. For the most part, we ended up pretty good because the girls worked really hard all year and many improved their tumbling. The biggest difference for us is that we didn't have a huge pool of athletes to choose from, and since it was our only senior team, we ended up having to put all athletes on this team. We were a senior 3, but we definitely had a few girls that belonged on a level 2 team. The small gyms don't have the luxury of putting every athlete on a team that's level appropriate for them, and I think that's what makes the big gym vs. small gym debate so tough. I like for my girls to compete against the big programs sometimes, but other times (and particularly at big competitions like US Finals) I think it's fair to have a separate division for the small gyms.

 

[WyldWon]

Small gym is considered under 75 athletes. It is usually pretty obvious whether you are over or under based on the teams you have, especially since I would go out on a limb and say that small gyms do not bring certain teams to certain competitions. They travel as a group since they are smaller and usually have crossovers between those teams.
There is always a lot of communication between event producers and gyms. If you are a cheerleader, you have no idea how many phone calls go back and forth before we register for a competition, and they are all fully aware of how many kids we have. If you have seven teams at your gym, I'm sure they don't even think about putting you in small gym. If you register two or three teams, many times they'll ask if that is your entire program or just a few select teams.

Its obvious to whom that a gym is over or under...and who monitors this to make sure people are not cheating? I know a gym who won 2 big comps entered as a small gym when in fact they are large....its clear that the comp companies are not monitoring this and gyms are allowed to enter as they please. Its sickening that people resort to this just to say they "won" something and its not teaching the kids to be honest~

 

[CEAlover08]

If possible, could you tell me some of the gym you think are cheating?

 

[WyldWon]

If possible, could you tell me some of the gym you think are cheating?

Are you asking me to publically call a team out on this board? Sorry, even though they clearly are in the wrong I wouldn't humiliate the innocent kids from that gym...their coach/owner are at fault.

 

[CEAlover08]

Are you asking me to publically call a team out on this board? Sorry, even though they clearly are in the wrong I wouldn't humiliate the innocent kids from that gym...their coach/owner are at fault.

I meant to message me. but nevermind

 

[cheerluv]

I think some certain gyms have an "issue" with certain gyms as their rivals and love nothing more then to try to say "they take the easy way out"? Competitions do however ask about gym size prior to competition. US Finals does contact gym owners about the number of kids registered in the program at the time of competition. Some competitons offer a small gym division and gyms are put there...... other competitions combine everyone, which is usually the case. Even as a small gym this season, with MANY crossovers to teams we had no issue beating teams either way. I feel certain gyms love nothing more than to cause ruckus instead of just worrying about themselves.

There are many more issues to worry about in the cheer world than small gym/large gym.......do we even discuss the issues with false birthcertificates........cheerleaders that are too old to be cheering?

 

[Katybugmom]

@CGAcheer I will certainly admit I may be wrong, but I don't think your example would be the case with most small gyms. In our case we had no one ready for level 4, and only 6 solid level 3 at the start of the season. All others were level 2's, but our coaches wanted to give the girls a chance to push themselves. so again, hard to compare with a team of solid 3s across the board. Much less a team with a third level 4s to start with. But again, if a team wants to compete with the larger gyms, I think it would be great for them to have that choice, but for your typical small gym team - IMHO- it simply isn't a level field.

Not to mention the wide age range that small gyms might have that causes them to go up to a SR level eventhough the avg age is 12.

 

[Katybugmom]

@aggie1983 meant to tag you in the previous post but the phone didn't want to let me.

I don't think you should decide the level of a team based off of 6 talented kids when the other 14 clearly fit the level below, if you want to be competitive.

Unfortunately, the upper level kids probably wouldn't stay, then you wouldn't have enough for even a lower level team. Then your program never grows. I think small gym should be 50 athletes or less.

 

[WyldWon]

I think some certain gyms have an "issue" with certain gyms as their rivals and love nothing more then to try to say "they take the easy way out"? Competitions do however ask about gym size prior to competition. US Finals does contact gym owners about the number of kids registered in the program at the time of competition. Some competitons offer a small gym division and gyms are put there...... other competitions combine everyone, which is usually the case. Even as a small gym this season, with MANY crossovers to teams we had no issue beating teams either way. I feel certain gyms love nothing more than to cause ruckus instead of just worrying about themselves.

There are many more issues to worry about in the cheer world than small gym/large gym.......do we even discuss the issues with false birthcertificates........cheerleaders that are too old to be cheering?

Hmmm, LOL...ok????? As far as illegal cheerleaders using false birth certificates go, I'm sure those offenders will be caught...afterall we live in a very small state where EVERYONE knows EVERYONE....(gotchya)

 

[cupieqt]

Idk about any false birth certificates but I do agree the small gym division is the least of the problems in cheer.