All-Star Controversial Topics From 2017

[Lablover]

Unless youth baseball has changed from when I was umpiring and coaching, we had to register our athletes with the organization, and only so many athletes registered at say AAA could be on a team competing at the AA level.

Isn't that the same concept? A gym loses most of its "aaa" players and drops to "aa"?

 

[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

Isn't that the same concept? A gym loses most of its "aaa" players and drops to "aa"?

No, because once they competed at the AAA level as a team all the players on that team became AAA players. The only way a AAA player should be playing on a AA team would be if a new season started.

So a program has a AAA 14u and a AA 12u.

Two of the 13 year olds become 14 and play with the new 13s on a AA team.

I'm explaining this about as clear as mud, and I'm certain I'm missing some details. It's been more than 13 years....

 

[AndyT_T]

Like I mentioned, if coaches and gym owners were forced to really look at their talents and not go a level just to say they have said level (which it does happen) then things like this wouldn't happen as often. Once people are held accountable for their actions, then it will keep happening. This is more for gyms who drop down levels just to win. That's not fair, nor does it show integrity in our sport.


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That's not how coaching works though. If you're a team of 11 and 1 girl quits, 1 girl gets injured, and 1 girl gets a mental block that could easily be enough to kill your chances of being successful in a level, and the smart decision is to go down a level.

And that sounds like a not-realistic situation, but it is. It happens all the time. If you're a small team, losing 3 of your good tumblers could be enough to destroy any chance you had in that division.

 

[Lablover]

No, because once they competed at the AAA level as a team all the players on that team became AAA players. The only way a AAA player should be playing on a AA team would be if a new season started.

So a program has a AAA 14u and a AA 12u.

Two of the 13 year olds become 14 and play with the new 13s on a AA team.

I'm explaining this about as clear as mud, and I'm certain I'm missing some details. It's been more than 13 years....

You definitely could be correct- my son's former travel baseball didn't typically play tournaments that use the aaa-aa categories, so I might have misspoke about that particular category.
However, I can with 100% confidence that there are basement tournaments that allow teams to select your team's division and move it during the season. And there were always teams that shouldn't be in the top division but would rather lose every game and say they were division 1 and also the opposite. Teams clearly playing below their level to win as many games as they could.

 

[AndyT_T]

This is why cheer will never be accepted as a sport. Too many ways for people to make the competition easier to accommodate their hurting egos.

You're comparing non performance sports and performance sports. Dance, gymnastics, figure skating, acro, etc all have the same issue. It's a part of being in a performance sport.

Edit: especially since forcing a team to stay AAA isn't a safety issue. Forcing a team to stay level 5 when they lose athletes definitely is a safety issue.

 

[cherita.cheerology]

That's not how coaching works though. If you're a team of 11 and 1 girl quits, 1 girl gets injured, and 1 girl gets a mental block that could easily be enough to kill your chances of being successful in a level, and the smart decision is to go down a level.

And that sounds like a not-realistic situation, but it is. It happens all the time. If you're a small team, losing 3 of your good tumblers could be enough to destroy any chance you had in that division.

And like I've said this is more for coaches who move down just for the sake of winning. I've already addressed the fact that things happen such as injuries and what not. But coaches and gym owners do move teams down just to win. Which kills the integrity. Did you watch my video?


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[OldskoolKYcheercoach]

You're comparing non performance sports and performance sports. Dance, gymnastics, figure skating, acro, etc all have the same issue. It's a part of being in a performance sport.

Edit: especially since forcing a team to stay AAA isn't a safety issue. Forcing a team to stay level 5 when they lose athletes definitely is a safety issue.

If you don't think forcing a team to stay AAA or major couldn't turn into a safety issue, you obviously have no appreciation for the difference between a high and tight fastball at 97mph versus one at 87 or 77. 18u major level teams are legit.

Edit: I'm not saying safety issues should be ignored. There should be a system of checks and balances to be certain teams are not roaming from division to division every competition just for the sake of padding their record.

 

[Natalia5]

That's why the coach should have never put them as r5 in the first place. Take pride in being good at the level you should be.

Exactly. This was obviously a coach's vision and should have just performed what they had actually perfected which was a solid level 4 while still preparing/ grooming them for r5. Maybe add a mandatory tumbling/ skills class each week to work on those r5 skills KWIM.


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[Natalia5]

It's also unsafe going a level they have no business being in. Which you pointed out it was better for them to drop a level...that's understandable, but coaches and gym owners need to really look at their talent before committing to a level.


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Exactly. My CP gym is being totally transparent this try out season and have put in writing a detailed try out packet with specific skills for each level that must hit without any assistance. So , I don't know about other programs but I think our gym is going to field teams strictly with their coaching brain and not their coaching heart. Translation: Unfortunately, there will probably be a lot of hurt feelings when the teams are filled this season.

 

[Lablover]

And like I've said this is more for coaches who move down just for the sake of winning. I've already addressed the fact that things happen such as injuries and what not. But coaches and gym owners do move teams down just to win. Which kills the integrity. Did you watch my video?


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I think everyone has different perspective on what is ethical. In my opinion, dropping a level mid season if the current leveling isn't scoring well isn't any less ethical than a team that makes a level 4 team with majority athletes that are working on doubles and 2 to fulls at beginning of season.

Exactly. My CP gym is being totally transparent this try out season and have put in writing a detailed try out packet with specific skills for each level that must hit without any assistance. So , I don't know about other programs but I think our gym is going to field teams strictly with their coaching brain and not their coaching heart. Translation: Unfortunately, there will probably be a lot of hurt feelings when the teams are filled this season.

I think that's great to spell out what's expected of each individual but what happens if they are short a back spot or flyer? Do they make exceptions? So you have 22 junior age level 4 athletes- with all required skills per tryout package. 5 flyers, 12 bases and 5 back spots. Do you tell the 2 extra bases they have to be on a lower level team or front spot on said team since there won't be enough stunt groups. Or do you try to find a backspot and flyer that can stunt level 4 but not tumble? Or is the gym large enough that there are multiple teams at the same level?

 

[dat.jpp]

*All of this debate is hitting literally everywhere inside my brain and is causing my brain to hurt and this might mean that I can't handle future debates as this is too much for me*

 

[AndyT_T]

And like I've said this is more for coaches who move down just for the sake of winning. I've already addressed the fact that things happen such as injuries and what not. But coaches and gym owners do move teams down just to win. Which kills the integrity. Did you watch my video?


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Yes, but the rule would affect both equally, the ones moving for legitimate reasons and the ones that sandbagging.

I know sandbagging exists, but the answer IMO isn't to make a rule that could be dangerous and that could be hugely detrimental for small gyms, but to better prepare for teams sandbagging. In the end having a level 4 drop and go level 3 sucks, but there will always be teams with more talent. It sucks, but you just have to be better than the people taking short cuts by going the hard route.

 

[cheermomforever]

Why do they need to suffer a consequence for losing the whole first half of the season before moving to the correct division?

I'm all for limiting the number of levels you can move or only allowing you to move levels once in a season, but telling a gym they can't drop down to the appropriate level is asinine.

We all know this discussion is being made about teams who do it on purpose for the win/bid not the ones who don't.

 

[FloridaFlya]

And that sounds like a not-realistic situation, but it is. It happens all the time. If you're a small team, losing 3 of your good tumblers could be enough to destroy any chance you had in that division.

Completely agree

 

[Ashley]

We all know this discussion is being made about teams who do it on purpose for the win/bid not the ones who don't.

I know that's what this discussion is about, but you can't make a rule to try and stop sandbaggers without hurting those who aren't doing it to sandbag. That's MY point in all of this.