All-Star S/o Release Discussion Re: Worlds Athletes

[King]

Its called doing good business. Happens everyday in the real world of business. You must do better then your competition if you want to do well.

That is what the end of the year is for. There is a lot of intricacies to cheerleading that other sports and businesses do not deal with. To improve the growth of cheerleading and provide some stability it is important to create an environment where all that can happen.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I believe you are very confused and uninformed. I work for one of those great clubs. We have not ever done anything to that extent. Nor, to my knowledge, have any of the others. What did happen is a lot of gyms WOULD recruit at events (or right after events) allowing that their individual gym did better than another individual gym. I just always found it iterating that there wasn't a rule before this to protect from larger gyms doing this (because that is a constant fear).

To those of us that it has happened to to be told by those either protecting their favorite program or uninformed how they do actually recruit some athletes it didn't happen or they just wanted to go to the larger program, when we witnessed it with our own eyes, read the texts, emails, offers of scholarships to those who have a double full or a discount if you can bring in a last pass tumbler from another gym, and internet postings on facebook, etc. fuels a whole lot of the big gym/small gym drama. There is a reason some gyms are not as admired in their own states as they are from afar and it is not just because people are afraid of losing to them on a competition floor.

 

[King]

To those of us that it has happened to to be told by those either protecting their favorite program or uninformed how they do actually recruit some athletes it didn't happen or they just wanted to go to the larger program, when we witnessed it with our own eyes, read the texts, emails, offers of scholarships to those who have a double full or a discount if you can bring in a last pass tumbler from another gym, and internet postings on facebook, etc. fuels a whole lot of the big gym/small gym drama. There is a reason some gyms are not as admired in their own states as they are from afar and it is not just because people are afraid of losing to them on a competition floor.

And you would say most of that recruiting would happen on older age senior level 5 teams going to Worlds, yes?

 

[tumbleyoda]

And you would say most of that recruiting would happen on older age senior level 5 teams going to Worlds, yes?

That has been what I experienced, followed closely by any level 5 athlete period. Please note this was before Juniors were stopped from going to Worlds.

 

[King]

That has been what I experienced, followed closely by any level 5 athlete period. Please note this was before Juniors were stopped from going to Worlds.

this is also one of those times when I don't think people realized how it 'used to be'. (and I haven't even been involved that long). Taking up time on a Fierce Board thread is good and all, but in reality this is a good rule (and all good rules have some flaws this has a few) but we have bigger fish to fry. Safety, universal scoresheet, better safety rules accountability, athlete registration... all that will come before this.

 

[tumbleyoda]

this is also one of those times when I don't think people realized how it 'used to be'. (and I haven't even been involved that long). Taking up time on a Fierce Board thread is good and all, but in reality this is a good rule (and all good rules have some flaws this has a few) but we have bigger fish to fry. Safety, universal scoresheet, better safety rules accountability, athlete registration... all that will come before this.

I agree. Just hoping they will see these type of threads and keep moving in the right direction.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

How does the gym owner have all the rights to your child? They can still compete at NCA, UCA, Cheersport, and yes eventually go to Worlds with an international if possible. Or what about the gyms that are out in the middle of nowhere and have no rival? You live in the middle of Minnesota and there is no gym anywhere close to you and its the same situation. You have no other options. You spent all that money. Would you allow your kid to stay at that gym to justify all the money you spent or would they just be done with cheerleading?

Seriously? I tried to see your side on this earlier when you were asked "Do you tell the kids in your gym that it's 'just Worlds'?" but I'm starting to think that was a perfect question. Do you really think any level 5 athlete who has trained their whole life to go to Worlds is going to be OK with NCA, UCA and Cheersport??? If it was your thousands upon thousands of dollars and your time and your child's dream...you'd be OK with telling them "Well sweetie, I know you've trained for this forever and it's your last year...but you can always hope your college is near a place with an International team (and that your courseload is light enough to accommodate this)."

Why would any of you be OK with a rule that ONLY gives rights to the person who stands to gain the most by NOT signing the waiver? The rule is WRITTEN to guarantee that it will be unfairly used.


And you guys keep saying that an appeals process would take too much resources. While I don't believe this (especially since you guys have sworn up and down that this is only a very small handful of kids affected every year, so I don't see how it can take but so long), then the rule shouldn't be. As much as I love the idea of it, you can't have rules without a way for someone to dispute unfair abuse of the rule. For god's sake even speeding tickets can be appealed.

 

[Mamarazzi]

Safety, universal scoresheet, better safety rules accountability, athlete registration... all that will come before this.

I'm really trying hard to understand, and I'm not being ugly when I ask, if safety, universal scoresheets, better safety rules accountability and athlete registration were so much more important, why weren't those problems solved prior to taking the time, through all the bureaucratic red-tape, to create a non-appeal-able waiver system that was bound to hurt some athletes?

Further, not all gyms go to UCA, NCA and Cheersport. Or Indy. We didn't, up until this this year, and maybe we'll never go back. What "big" event does that leave us with, if not Worlds?

 

[ztaprincess]

I just wonder is there a reason this rule wasn't voted on like the others have been? Was it brought up during the big regional meetings at one time and they just decided to implement it without voting?

Can the next rule be that if an athlete wants to leave after helping their team win a bid that they get to take their portion of the bid money with them? Or if a coach leaves a gym where they were coaching a level 5 worlds team that they cannot coach a worlds team at another gym unless their previous gym owner signs a release? Or how about if an athlete leaves a gym they have to sign a waiver giving the team permission to use the bid that they helped win. All seems fair right since it is just worlds and all.

 

[rpm99]

Speaking of parents/kids having power. I KNOW of 2 Worlds bound athletes at a MAJOR bid competition, backstage right before going on the floor, waivers in hand, told the coach sign or we are not competing. It worked. Personally I wouldn't want anyone like that on my team and it would have screwed the other 34 other kids. Another athlete quit, for no good reason other than they were not happy, right before Worlds leaving the team to scramble for a replacement. Who cared about the other 34 kids?! So, parents really do have power.

I would like to see additions to the rule, not appeals. Additions to include:

• the coach not replacing a qualified athlete with a more qualified athlete. Seen where a kid was brought in, who didn't come from another gym so there was not waiver thing. The replaced kid had no other recourse as coach will not sign release. So if kid can't leave for another worlds team coach shouldn't be able to replace.
• Moving a pre-determined distance away from gym.
• can't get released while there is money owed.

I am not all for the release for criminal "reports", being in law enforcement I know how much crap goes into that. 99%crap, 1%fact. HOWEVER, if I were at all concerned about criminal/creep issues, my kids are out regardless of a release. Cheer is a non-issue at that point.

 

[debbie]

That is what the end of the year is for. There is a lot of intricacies to cheerleading that other sports and businesses do not deal with. To improve the growth of cheerleading and provide some stability it is important to create an environment where all that can happen.

Sorry I guess I just believe in Capitalism

 

[King]

I'm really trying hard to understand, and I'm not being ugly when I ask, if safety, universal scoresheets, better safety rules accountability and athlete registration were so much more important, why weren't those problems solved prior to taking the time, through all the bureaucratic red-tape, to create a non-appeal-able waiver system that was bound to hurt some athletes?

Further, not all gyms go to UCA, NCA and Cheersport. Or Indy. We didn't, up until this this year, and maybe we'll never go back. What "big" event does that leave us with, if not Worlds?

It is one of the easier fixes that is easy to implement, very effective, and takes little resources to police (I don't even think you need a signed release form unless someone challenges you at Worlds and you can produce it).

Mamarazzi and Just-a-Mom so we are at an impasse. I think an appeals process has little to no chance of happening and you are both adamant it NEEDS to happen. I won't try and stop any movement to create one but I sure won't champion one either (it really isn't worth the time and effort). Let us file this one in the 'Will revisit in 3 years' to see if anything has changed. I would loved to keep up with the process and see if all the suggested hurdles we have come up with do happen. Feel free to work with the PAC to try and get it passed.

 

[rpm99]

To ensure the release/waiver process is fair and not fraudulent, can't it be done electronically? Not through email. A form using your membership number where you login, fill out the form, sign it electronically, it then goes to GYM A, who does the same. Then it is stored in USASF's data base for review by Gym B.

 

[King]

To ensure the release/waiver process is fair and not fraudulent, can't it be done electronically? Not through email. A form using your membership number where you login, fill out the form, sign it electronically, it then goes to GYM A, who does the same. Then it is stored in USASF's data base for review by Gym B.

Of course. But that requires programming, of which that the USASF outsources.

Technically speaking ANYTHING in cheerleading isn't that hard, there just needs to be the resources.

 

[kristenthegreat]

I'm reposting this, because I believe many people skipped it over. It's a real-life example of what happened when my school unintentionally allowed students to be lax about their dorm life choices (and ties into how easily an appeal process can make people lax about their gym-decisions):

Let me give you an example: My old college used to charge only $100 for the dorm deposit. What they started to find was that initially they had a huge sign up and thought they would need all these extra rooms for students, so they would procure extra dorms. What was ACTUALLY happening, was that students would put down the $100 deposit, then look for an apt. If they found one, they'd walk away from the $100 (because for some people, $100 non-refunded isn't that big of a deal)..and my college was left to foot the bill for all these extra dorms. Instead, what they did the next year was charge $400, the amount of refund you could receive decreased in proportion to how close it was to start of term (From May to July, after which you wouldn't get ANYTHING back). The $400 was subtracted from what you would be charged to dorm per semester..this way, it forced people to make a housing decision faster. Did it suck for those students whose housing fell through and had to be on the wait-list? Or who were stuck not knowing where they would be living or with whom? Sure. But it began to force people to make smarter, more educated decisions with their money because of it. Like the students who just put down the $100 and didn't care when they walked away, so too might we have a bigger issue if people get lax about making decisions because they feel they can just appeal later on..

I wish we could know, SPECIFICALLY, the amount the people this rule affected last year. I imagine a bit more because it went through mid-way (As opposed to how many this will affect this year), but I would like a set number. Not a 'Well, I think it may have perhaps affected my third cousins friends boyfriends sisters friends next door neighbor, but I'm not sure exactly.' I know of ONE person (And only because that one person was discussed on here briefly), who this affected last year. It would be great if the USASF kept tabs on the submission of these things (perhaps via Athlete Registration Number?), so that people are aware of where the athlete is attempting to leave from, how many athletes, and perhaps a reason if they'd like?