All-Star Amazing Level 2 Teams?

[socratesofcheer]

It isn't right, but that team has been competing like that for the season. It wasn't created via a tryout in the weeks before Cheersport and NCA just for the purpose of competing for a jacket at those two events.

We are trying to formulate a process to prevent the main issue being addressed here. The assumption is that it would also address this second scenario - since these scenarios are part of the solutions being debated.

Well, the only way to totally stop the sandbagging issue is: to have every athlete registered via SSN and credentialed every year. The only problem is the coaches who won't move athletes up because they are trying to maintain a competitive advantage.

I think it is safe to say that most everyone dislikes sandbagging tremendously. However, since it has become a normal thing, is that part of the reason for our sport's growth? Would it put smaller gyms out of business and run some athletes out if they couldn't win?

 

[TheUltimateFan]

Well, the only way to totally stop the sandbagging issue is: to have every athlete registered via SSN and credentialed every year. The only problem is the coaches who won't move athletes up because they are trying to maintain a competitive advantage.....

Solutions are being debated in the Sandbagging thread that died during NCA, but will be revived

I think it is safe to say that most everyone dislikes sandbagging tremendously. However, since it has become a normal thing, is that part of the reason for our sport's growth? Would it put smaller gyms out of business and run some athletes out if they couldn't win?

In my opinion, it will impact the small gyms significantly. Nobody wants to be in a sport where they have zero chance of winning.

But the impact won't be just to small gyms. It will be to every Level 1, 2, 3 athlete at any gym who can't compete because the Level 1, 2, 3 teams are full of higher level athletes and their developing skills can't make the cut at their own true level.

 

[aggie1983]

You did misunderstand. Apology accepted. I think your small gym situation is not the norm. Thus the reason I said "just about every". I've been to tons of usasf meetings where this was discussed from the perspective of a small gym.

Also, there is a person from a small gym bragging about how great their level 2 team is and saying that she and many others cross down because they like to be on two teams. She also says the boy on the team is level 5, has a double and stunts level 5. My question is: where is that outrage?

I appreciate the clarification. Regarding crossovers, I really wish they were not allowed except in cases of injury, exactly for the reason you stated. So what if Suzi enjoys being on two teams. One athlete, one team - choose. And again, I am saying this as someone from a small gym. And while admittedly this is easy for me to say, why not go ahead and identify the team you're talking about. If every team that did this: sandbagging, stacking, too many higher level crossovers, whatever were called out for it, maybe they might think twice. We can't be outraged, if we don't know who to be outraged at.

 

[FamousMatty]

The only holes I see is your inability to distinguish facts from Heresay or rumors. The fact is only I know the situation. If you choose to make your points based on a disgruntled employee who hasn't stepped foot in my gym since the day I fired him then so be it. But, I'll continue to post the facts.
FACTS:
1) The team was made up of crossover athletes from 6 different teams in the gym and 1 former athlete. These were the athletes who could afford a last minute trip to Dallas with just 6 weeks to prepare for it. The trip cost about $1000-$2000 per family. So this team was made up of the athletes who had some extra money to spend.
2) 19 of the athletes are on teams that are Level 2, 3 & 4 at Rockstar. 1 athlete is a Level 4 tumbler but flies on a Level 5 team. She backspots a group.
3) We learned the routine in 2 days
4) We had 3 practices to do the routine before our 1st competition, the 1st weekend of February at NCA Atlanta.
5) We lost that competition to Stingray Lg Jr 2
6) We did not have enough time to put together a Level 3 routine and compete it in 3 practice days.
7) We competed 4 times this year including NCA
8) We had 12 practices
9) We will never put a routine on the floor at Rockstar that isn't clean that isn't hitting. We most certainly wouldn't ask parents to spend $1000-$2000 to go experience the Super Bowl of Cheerleading (NCA) and pray that we could get a Level 3 routine together. If we could have done a Level 3 routine in 3 practices, we would have.
10) This trip was an amazing one for our parents and athletes. All they've talked about is going shopping and buying Cowboy boots, cowboy hats, visiting Dallas Cowboy stadium and experiencing NCA. For our gym it was a great decision and those parents and our customers are very appreciative in our decision.
11) We did not cheat or break any rule.
12) We lose to teams at every competition who we know aren't competing at their true tumbling level
13) We beat teams at every competition that aren't competing at their true tumbling level.
14) There are teams that compete down an entire season, that aren't their true tumbling level and compete all season like this. Unless you go into every person's gym and find out what each team is doing, then all these teams are sandbagging.
15) If you don't like the USASF rules then go do something about it. Whatever the rules are we will continue to follow them.
You are entitled to your opinion and that's what the message boards are for. But the minute you try to speak something inaccurate about Rockstar or harm our business with rumors I will adamantly defend it.

I'm sorry, I have read through multiple times in an attempt to find somewhere to agree with this decision and this last post just confirmed I'm not going to. The fact you could put together a nationals winning routine in 12 practices is a true testament to just how out of level your athletes were truly competing. I agree with you a level 3 routine may have been harder to put together, but then the answer to your parents should have been that you were only taking level 5's to NCA this year and you'll revisit the idea of more teams going next year. These athletes were junior age so it was not like this was their last year cheering and you wanted to give them a chance to go to NCA. If it was truly simply for the experience then the idea of a clean perfect routine wouldn't be a necessary issue. If the parents truly wanted the experience the give them the same experience that 95% of the cheer world attending NCA gets. Competing to the BEST of their abilities and if they don't win they don't win like the hundreds of other teams who didn't. The only experience you have created is athletes who now will be ok dropping their skills in order to win a jacket. I work one of the largest programs on the east coast. We have been successful with minimal crossovers and PLENTY of losses. It can be done. Defend how you feel fit, but at the end of the day whether you find them justified or not your actions were shady. I am hard pressed to see your point where any of this has helped your business as you stated. I only see a marred reputation and negative repercussions coming from this event.

 

[MomOf2ThatsMe]

Well, the only way to totally stop the sandbagging issue is: to have every athlete registered via SSN and credentialed every year. The only problem is the coaches who won't move athletes up because they are trying to maintain a competitive advantage.

I think I speak for a lot of parents when I say that this would only be tolerated to a certain point. The tactic you described would eventually come around to bite the coaches in the rear when the parents realize they can go to the gym down the street and their solid level 4 athlete will be both credentialed and competing as a level 4 after being on level 2 for the past 3 years "to remain competitive"

 

[SheCheers]

I think I speak for a lot of parents when I say that this would only be tolerated to a certain point. The tactic you described would eventually come around to bite the coaches in the rear when the parents realize they can go to the gym down the street and their solid level 4 athlete will be both credentialed and competing as a level 4 after being on level 2 for the past 3 years "to remain competitive"

i agree! most parents have kids barely landing their tucks angry that they're kid isn't on level 3. Kids being literally forced to try out for level 5 and don't even have their full yet. I don't see it flying long.

One idea (and it's just an idea), but if it's the coaches credentialing athletes, there could always be an automatic email sent out to the parents of said athlete where they would have to confirm the information to be true. it's not a bad idea for several reasons...confirming birth date, level, contact info, etc

 

[redsmom]

I think I speak for a lot of parents when I say that this would only be tolerated to a certain point. The tactic you described would eventually come around to bite the coaches in the rear when the parents realize they can go to the gym down the street and their solid level 4 athlete will be both credentialed and competing as a level 4 after being on level 2 for the past 3 years "to remain competitive"

Agree 100%, if a gym can't provide an opportunity for a cheerleader to be competitive at their true level, year after year, maybe its not the right gym. (Note I said year after year, because growth as a gym does take time and some amount of patience.)

 

[CharlotteASMom]

There are a lot of people here that are extremely involved in making this sport everything it can be. Many of us are parents that give hours of our time to push this sport forward even when our kids don't participate in cheer anymore (ie ultimatefan, acedad, or myself). So it just makes me sick when I hear the justification for an unethical decison as it's "best for my gym", or "best for my kid", or even "best for my event".

We are doing everything in our power to have this sport elevated in the public's eye to what each of us knows it to be. Decisions like this bring us right back to what we are too often peceived to be: silly girls and boys that dress up to win a trophy. I still cannot think of any other youth sport where dropping levels below your ability is praised, encouraged, or admired and any justification that this is good for cheer is detrimental to this sport.

So I hope the next time you make a decison to get around the rules for the sake of the "experience" you also consider what you are doing to the sport that all of us love so much.

 

[ztaprincess]

I'm sorry, I have read through multiple times in an attempt to find somewhere to agree with this decision and this last post just confirmed I'm not going to. The fact you could put together a nationals winning routine in 12 practices is a true testament to just how out of level your athletes were truly competing.

EXACTLY!! There are World Champion teams who could not have their routine nationals ready and perfect in 12 practices yet this level 2 team did. I bet if Shooting Stars learned a level 2 routine instead of their appropriate level routine they too could have a winng routine in 12 practices.
To say that you couldn't get a level 3 routine complete in time is silly, if you could do it with a level 2 routine then you could do it with a level 3 routine. Of course that level 3 routine may not have won cheersport or NCA, but since it was all for the experience does that really matter too much?

 

[cheermommaRN]

i agree! most parents have kids barely landing their tucks angry that they're kid isn't on level 3. Kids being literally forced to try out for level 5 and don't even have their full yet. I don't see it flying long.

One idea (and it's just an idea), but if it's the coaches credentialing athletes, there could always be an automatic email sent out to the parents of said athlete where they would have to confirm the information to be true. it's not a bad idea for several reasons...confirming birth date, level, contact info, etc

This is the difference between a team that is competitive in their division, and one that isn't. For example, most gyms in Texas will not place a child on a level 3 team if they are not consistently throwing level 3 skills, meaning 9 out of 10 times they hit it. So you could theoretically have a level 2 team with a majority of kids working on their tucks and by the end of the season the whole team moves up a level. Living in AZ it was the exact opposite. Before we left my youngest daughter was taking tumbling classes at our old gym and I was watching their junior 3 team warm up their running tumbling. Only one child had a roundoff tuck (not even a bhs tuck). I asked him why he was taking them level 3 if they only had that one and he said the others were close but not there yet, but they should be by the 1st competition. Basically the parents had decided they wanted their kids to be 3 and he was trying his hardest to get them there and be competitive rather then risk losing a bunch of kids. That is why Arizona teams (not including Power and DSE) have a hard time being competitive outside their state.

 

[caa10]

I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING.

 

[cheermommaRN]

In the spirit of the original intent of the thread, this past weekend we sat with a group of parents from United Rock All Stars. Their team was competing in the Large Junior 2A division (Showstoppers). Here is the link to their video from Varsity (you may have to type them into the search bar).

2012 NCA/NDA All-Star National Championship


Check out the little guy on the left side for most of the routine. I don't know where all these fierce little boys came from but the cuteness makes me SQUEEEEE and then fall over...lol

 

[katzgirl96]

thank you! that means so much! tht little boy is amazing athlete he has double d
full & can stunt l l 5 too

Wow I can't wait to see what he can do in five years he's going to be amazing

 

[Nothanks]

I could be completely wrong, because I don't know personally, and this is just what I was told 3-4 years ago, and anyone from Buffalo Envy, please feel free to correct me.

But doesn't their worlds senior 5 team also compete senior 4? My senior year, we competed against them, and my coach told us that they switch back and forth between 4 and 5 throughout the season (mainly just for a bid comp, and worlds and maybe locals? i don't remember exactly what she said). While that isn't as extreme as level 2-4/5, they still could go open/restricted 5 like spice did last year...

 

[ztaprincess]

I could be completely wrong, because I don't know personally, and this is just what I was told 3-4 years ago, and anyone from Buffalo Envy, please feel free to correct me.

But doesn't their worlds senior 5 team also compete senior 4? My senior year, we competed against them, and my coach told us that they switch back and forth between 4 and 5 throughout the season (mainly just for a bid comp, and worlds and maybe locals? i don't remember exactly what she said). While that isn't as extreme as level 2-4/5, they still could go open/restricted 5 like spice did last year...

Before the merger I am pretty sure East Elite would compete Senior 4 part the year and then go level 5 for a few competitions to get a bid to worlds in Small Senior 5 (someone correct me if I am wrong). I think if it is a team that continues to place in the top 10 at worlds then they should probably just stick to being level 5 all year, but if they are doing something like Rubies did one year where they go level 5 just to get a bid and see what worlds is like for those athletes that wouldn't get the chance any other time then I don't see a problem.