All-Star Homegrown Athletes

[cheerisloving]

I mention fly in athletes because now when you look a big level 5 teams, there are so many people who are not from the gym or the area at all. It used to be common for the 3-5 level 5 athletes to move to the gym with a team for them because they were about to age out and wanted a chance at worlds. Now it seems like great athletes don't stay in their gym, or in their area. That trend, I would imagine make it harder for home grown L5s who may be on a team with new faces to the gym.

 

[tumbleyoda]

It worries me too, because then you might have lower lever kids thinking, "hey, maybe if I just leave for XYZ Allstars now, I'll have a better shot at making their Worlds team.

And POOF goes the small gym.

And this is also already happening at an alarming rate. It is not just having a better shot at making their Worlds team. It is is getting into a new system, learning the new coaches, and developing relationships that may give them a better shot at their dream team, regardless of the level.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I know there was a 'controversial' thread about the path of athletes in the gym, but I am interested to know how common it is for athletes to start level 1 in a program and go straight to the worlds team, especially in big gyms.

With so many athletes flying in to be on XYZ Allstars, I wonder where original athletes fall.

ETA: I say level 1 but I'm thinking tinys,minis,youth.

My daughter started as a true Level 1 in 2004. Although the program did not have Level 1 teams (they started everyone at Level 2) she had zero level 2 skills. She ended her last year on World's Level 5 team with a full paid bid in 2010. Same gym. Probably would say it was medium sized gym by total enrollment, and large by amount of teams. (crossovers)

At my current gym we have several athletes that started Level 1 and have moved steadily up towards Level 5. Many have been with us 5 years or more, with one in her 11th year from when the gym first opened until now. She has been to World's twice. While our all star program is small (limited to no crossovers) and relatively unknown, we have numerous athletes that do not do all stars but count towards our total enrollment.

 

[12stepCheermom]

I think it's probably more likely in large programs that can field all the levels. I think a fair bit of the issue can come from an athlete at a small gym outgrowing where they are. If they gain skills appropriate for a level that gym can't offer than a move is inevitable (if there's a program nearby that can meet their needs). I don't think it's fair to a kid to expect them to "hold themselves back" in progression if the original program no longer meets their needs.


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[tumbleyoda]

Homegrown means different things to different people/gyms. For example I get what the OP is saying yet I can point to athletes that are not homegrown that are claimed by gyms, fans, and sometimes even they themselves as if they were. Some define it as the the start of their training, others the start of their level 5 competing and others the start of their celebrity.

This kinda points to what @12stepCheermom said above you have the athlete/parent that has outgrown their small gym. That may be the feeling of the athlete/parent/fan but rarely is that the opinion of the gym that is being left. It always leaves them struggling to build that team, to convince athletes to stay and a little less willing to invest in athletes to get to that level if all they are going to do is jump up and go to their competitor as soon as they can.

 

[mom2three]

Homegrown means different things to different people/gyms. For example I get what the OP is saying yet I can point to athletes that are not homegrown that are claimed by gyms, fans, and sometimes even they themselves as if they were. Some define it as the the start of their training, others the start of their level 5 competing and others the start of their celebrity.

This kinda points to what @12stepCheermom said above you have the athlete/parent that has outgrown their small gym. That may be the feeling of the athlete/parent/fan but rarely is that the opinion of the gym that is being left. It always leaves them struggling to build that team, to convince athletes to stay and a little less willing to invest in athletes to get to that level if all they are going to do is jump up and go to their competitor as soon as they can.

When you say a little less willing to invest in athletes to get to that level, what exactly do you mean? Aren't these athletes paying for these services?

 

[CharlotteASMom]

Homegrown means different things to different people/gyms. For example I get what the OP is saying yet I can point to athletes that are not homegrown that are claimed by gyms, fans, and sometimes even they themselves as if they were. Some define it as the the start of their training, others the start of their level 5 competing and others the start of their celebrity.

This kinda points to what @12stepCheermom said above you have the athlete/parent that has outgrown their small gym. That may be the feeling of the athlete/parent/fan but rarely is that the opinion of the gym that is being left. It always leaves them struggling to build that team, to convince athletes to stay and a little less willing to invest in athletes to get to that level if all they are going to do is jump up and go to their competitor as soon as they can.

Reminds me of a post @BlueCat made one time. The mega-gym that gets the athlete says the previous gym didn't have a team or proper placement for the kid. The small gym that lost the athlete says the kid wanted to be on a team at the mega-gym that had a higher chance of winning. Depends on the point of view and how you want to justify it.

Personally I am really disturbed by the amount of small gyms that are being taken over by large ones but I have no idea how to stop that. Most of the cheer mentality for level 5 right now is that the ring is everything. While there are a few exceptions to the rule, the mega-gyms are providing most of those right now.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

When you say a little less willing to invest in athletes to get to that level, what exactly do you mean? Aren't these athletes paying for these services?

Not sure what his meaning was but there are quite a few gyms right now that are branding themselves as level 1-4s.

 

[mom2three]

Not sure what his meaning was but there are quite a few gyms right now that are branding themselves as level 1-4s.

Ok that would make sense.

To take off on your other post about it being all about rings and such, I think we need to down play the importance of worlds industry wide. Gyms are touting the fact that they go to worlds, like that makes them one of the elite. Actually it make them just like everyone else. Bids are NOT hard to get! They are willing to spend money and go to worlds when they know their chances of even making it out of prelims is doubtful. The same gyms wont spend the money to go to say, NCA because they know they would be competing above their head.
(example look at the top ten at NCA in each worlds division and look at the top ten at worlds, pretty much the same teams) Problem is the people that run the industry want worlds to be the be end all of everything. That's why they now want to make a small gym division, so they can keep their precious cash cow AND keep the small gyms happy.

 

[tumbleyoda]

When you say a little less willing to invest in athletes to get to that level, what exactly do you mean? Aren't these athletes paying for these services?

I agree athletes/parents pay for services. That can not be denied. However understand coaches/gyms do invest into those same athletes beyond the contract, so to speak. Not to a point that they "own" someone and they can't leave, mind you. But we don't punch the clock and only work with an athlete for the exact dollar amount that has been paid either. Because if everything was truly paid for then the numbers at many gyms would drop significantly. Free training, open gyms, mental block work, extra reps, etc are an investment into that athlete as well. I don't charge for every e-mail from a concerned parent I have to respond to about a tumbling class evaluation, team placement issue. I don't charge parents when suzie goes away to some camp and returns with a mental block, or parents have offered some bribe/incentive to get them to throw a skill and if I don't try to help her through it, it negatively impacts my teams. And I refuse to believe I am the only coach that does this.

Please don't think I feel we should charge and nickel and dime everything we do. I don't. The mature coaches realize we will never truly be paid by those athletes/parents who pay for our services what we are worth/deserve/put into this. But don't minimize our investment or time and care either. That cost goes way beyond the check.

As to level, this is just my opinion but we have been 'brainwashed" that you have to make it to Level 5 or you suck. Your team sucks. Your gym sucks. Your coaches suck. No need to even talk about what you are doing. You got a bid but not full paid? Why waste your time. If you are not getting to finals, why even go? So the push to get there has IMO destroyed many an athlete, parent, coach and gym. It has become a race to program instability for many gyms, fully bankrolling Level 5 athletes while making everyone else pay in full not just for themselves but for the scholarship athletes. Athletes and parents are willing to uproot themselves and move across the globe just to say they went to Worlds, or placed top ten or won a ring. I have said this before, but we could win Worlds and our enrollment would not change +/- 2 athletes total. But we work diligently with our level 1-3's and we are continually growing by leaps and bounds.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

Ok that would make sense.

To take off on your other post about it being all about rings and such, I think we need to down play the importance of worlds industry wide. Gyms are touting the fact that they go to worlds, like that makes them one of the elite. Actually it make them just like everyone else. Bids are NOT hard to get! They are willing to spend money and go to worlds when they know their chances of even making it out of prelims is doubtful. The same gyms wont spend the money to go to say, NCA because they know they would be competing above their head.
(example look at the top ten at NCA in each worlds division and look at the top ten at worlds, pretty much the same teams) Problem is the people that run the industry want worlds to be the be end all of everything. That's why they now want to make a small gym division, so they can keep their precious cash cow AND keep the small gyms happy.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but curious. Does this mean that smaller gyms should just give up on trying to have a Worlds team? Go ahead and accept that one of 10 gyms out there have already won so why bother? Should all gyms outside of those 10 just be feeder 1-4 gyms?

Obviously I'm asking extremes here but just looking for discussion.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Reminds me of a post @BlueCat made one time. The mega-gym that gets the athlete says the previous gym didn't have a team or proper placement for the kid. The small gym that lost the athlete says the kid wanted to be on a team at the mega-gym that had a higher chance of winning. Depends on the point of view and how you want to justify it.

Personally I am really disturbed by the amount of small gyms that are being taken over by large ones but I have no idea how to stop that. Most of the cheer mentality for level 5 right now is that the ring is everything. While there are a few exceptions to the rule, the mega-gyms are providing most of those right now.

Disturbed is an overwhelming understatement. Unless something radical happens it will only increase.

 

[Boo21]

This argument is an endless one. There are plenty of "homegrown" athletes from all of the large gyms and trust me they do not get anything above a newbie that just joined the gym. If anything it's the other way around. The gym already knows your family has invested years and years of time and money in there gym your not going anywhere. But the new families come in and can get their kids on teams with lesser skills then the long time families can.


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[BlueCat]

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but curious. Does this mean that smaller gyms should just give up on trying to have a Worlds team? Go ahead and accept that one of 10 gyms out there have already won so why bother? Should all gyms outside of those 10 just be feeder 1-4 gyms?

Obviously I'm asking extremes here but just looking for discussion.

In cheer alone, I believe 26 different programs have won Worlds and 70 different programs have medalled. That isn't nearly as "exclusive" as people think.

 

[CharlotteASMom]

In cheer alone, I believe 26 different programs have won Worlds and 70 different programs have medalled. That isn't nearly as "exclusive" as people think.

Do you know or do you think that has changed in the last 5-7 years? Meaning fewer gyms are proportionally winning more medals?