All-Star Am I The Only One? (score Sheet Talk)

[socratesofcheer]

I numbered your points for easier reference.
1. I agree and it already happens. What can get it to the appropriate level.
2. I agree and this is partially happening. Most panels I'm on have multiple certified rules judges. Maybe increasing the percentage of judges on a panel that are rules certified should be the next step.
3. Good idea, but will be tough to implement. Which coaches do you have run the classes. I've been around great coaches that do/teach things significantly different but get great results. Are we ready to declare one way right?
4. This is done some, but could be more. Who decides what is THE right score?

Also, I'm talking about a very thorough training system. This is something that would take several days to complete. It certainly would not be a one day seminar where someone would stand up there and dictate what was going on. There would have to be discussion regarding point values etc. If I'm going to spend a grand or so on some training I'll plan on being there for 2-3 days.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Socrates - Keep focusing on details for the training. Once there is a solid base for a course I will push for it as hard as you do.

 

[socratesofcheer]

Socrates - Keep focusing on details for the training. Once there is a solid base for a course I will push for it as hard as you do.

I think there is a solid base. The Varsity scoring system. Sure it has some flaws, but, so does everything else. I guess what I'm referring to is much more involved than just a few hour review and saying a full up is an elite stunt. I'm talking about a very thorough discussion of the fake up vs. full up vs. 1 1/4 vs. 1 1/2 etc. and their respective point values.

If the masses can agree that a full up is worth say 9.3 points, then the judging would become much more consistent.

 

[Deleted member 15]

If the masses can agree that a full up is worth say 9.3 points, then the judging would become much more consistent.

That would work great if only 1 stunt group performed 1 stunt in a routine.

 

[socratesofcheer]

That would work great if only 1 stunt group performed 1 stunt in a routine.

It has become painfully obvious that you are unwilling to have a logical conversation about this problem we call judging. If you wish to try again please let me know.

 

[Deleted member 15]

It has become painfully obvious that you are unwilling to have a logical conversation about this problem we call judging. If you wish to try again please let me know.

I'm using a small team in my example. Which should get the 9.3 for the full up?

1. A team that does 3 full ups with front spots.
2. A team that does 4 full ups with front spots.
3. A team that does 4 full ups with 4 people not stunting.
4. A team that does 4 full ups with a straight up.
5. A team that does 3 full ups with a 1 1/2 up.
6. A team that does 4 full ups with a 1 1/2 up.
7. A team that does 5 full ups.

All of the meet the Half+1 the Varsity System requires, but are different. We haven't even made it to the rest of the sequence or any other stunts spread throughout the routine. Which ONE should get the 9.3?

 

[championprincess]

I'm using a small team in my example. Which should get the 9.3 for the full up?

1. A team that does 3 full ups with front spots.
2. A team that does 4 full ups with front spots.
3. A team that does 4 full ups with 4 people not stunting.
4. A team that does 4 full ups with a straight up.
5. A team that does 3 full ups with a 1 1/2 up.
6. A team that does 4 full ups with a 1 1/2 up.
7. A team that does 5 full ups.

All of the meet the Half+1 the Varsity System requires, but are different. We haven't even made it to the rest of the sequence or any other stunts spread throughout the routine. Which ONE should get the 9.3?

This sounds like a pretty logical argument to me...

 

[CGAcheer]

It has become painfully obvious that you are unwilling to have a logical conversation about this problem we call judging. If you wish to try again please let me know.

it is the problem with judging cheer, more than one thing happens at a time:

if 4 groups do a fake up and 3 do full ups do you do 4/7 x (fake up score) averaged with 3/7 x full up score, but then the next team just does 4 full ups. What if they do a skill that wasn't thought of when the score sheet was made. Tumbling is even harder, 12 people do ro bhs fulls but the other 8 do a variety of specialty passes to doubles. or a team of 20 does 10 standing doubles which might be counted the same as a team of 20 doing 11 standing fulls Since the majority didn't do the doubles.

Also if you get too specific in a score sheet and say that a particular skill is worth 10, why would anyone not have that in their routine (besides not being able to do it)

or you could look at the cheersport sheet which just counts the # of performed skills, and have a guy in the corner doing 15 standing doubles and a group in another corner constantly tick tocking to drive up scores.

If I were to design a sheet it would be based on a 10 point range as follows:
1-10 for difficulty with a scoring grid outlining the types of skills that would get you in the bottom, middle, and top of that range, but it is the combination of skills that gets you higher in the range.
Execution Score 1-10 based on how well they did the skills, bobbles and whatnot would be included with this score
Participation score Percentage of team involved with/performing the skills multiplied by the difficulty and the execution scores and then added together.

so lets say the level 5 score is ranged from 90 - 100

a Team of 24 does 2 ball up 360 tick tock bow and arrow double downs which for this example we will say is worth 9 in the ten point range.
and they do 3 ball up tick tock bow and arrow double downs which lets say is worth a 7.

So to score that sequence 2/5 x 9 + 3/5 x 7 would equal 7.8 for difficulty
lets say the execution was a 9 (scoring the sequence as a whole)
Since they only had 5 groups and had 24 people their Participation score would be .83 so that would give us 6.5 for participation difficulty and 7.5 for participation execution.

Then we could avg that all together and get a 7.7 for the score within the range giving us a stunt score of 97.7.

a second sequence could be scored the same way and then averaged in to create the final "stunt" score

But you would probably need to hire someone just to do the math and possibly someone to count especially in the tumbling sections.
Perhaps its overly complicated, but I think it accounts for the majority of peoples questions on score sheets.

 

[socratesofcheer]

I'm using a small team in my example. Which should get the 9.3 for the full up?

1. A team that does 3 full ups with front spots.
2. A team that does 4 full ups with front spots.
3. A team that does 4 full ups with 4 people not stunting.
4. A team that does 4 full ups with a straight up.
5. A team that does 3 full ups with a 1 1/2 up.
6. A team that does 4 full ups with a 1 1/2 up.
7. A team that does 5 full ups.

All of the meet the Half+1 the Varsity System requires, but are different. We haven't even made it to the rest of the sequence or any other stunts spread throughout the routine. Which ONE should get the 9.3?

Team #8 would actually score a 9.5. Because they have only 9 athletes and are putting up 3 full ups. This is far more difficult than the team doing 5 full ups with 20 people.

You are trying to point out all of the flaws in a system before a system is set up. This is very similar to the EIN discussion at the NACCC. Lots of people wanted to point out how they would beat the system before there ever was a system. That's not the point. The point is you have to have a starting point and go from there. That's why your current system of a judges meeting for a couple hours listening to the EP the night before nationals doesn't work.

If you have well thought out discussions at the meeting your current question could have been answered. Currently if there are 5 teams like example #7 they may very well get different difficulty scores.

Assuming that each team has 20 females:
Team 1. 9.0
Team 2. 9.1
Team 3. 9.1
Team 4. 9.2
Team 5. Not sure how many groups there are (3 or 4)
Team 6. Not sure how many groups there are (4 or 5)
Team 7. 9.3

No system will ever be perfect. Its ok for two teams doing different skills to score the same. And you need a starting point before you tear the system apart.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Team #8 would actually score a 9.5. Because they have only 9 athletes and are putting up 3 full ups. This is far more difficult than the team doing 5 full ups with 20 people.

You are trying to point out all of the flaws in a system before a system is set up. This is very similar to the EIN discussion at the NACCC. Lots of people wanted to point out how they would beat the system before there ever was a system. That's not the point. The point is you have to have a starting point and go from there. That's why your current system of a judges meeting for a couple hours listening to the EP the night before nationals doesn't work.

If you have well thought out discussions at the meeting your current question could have been answered. Currently if there are 5 teams like example #7 they may very well get different difficulty scores.

Assuming that each team has 20 females:
Team 1. 9.0
Team 2. 9.1
Team 3. 9.1
Team 4. 9.2
Team 5. Not sure how many groups there are (3 or 4)
Team 6. Not sure how many groups there are (4 or 5)
Team 7. 9.3

No system will ever be perfect. Its ok for two teams doing different skills to score the same. And you need a starting point before you tear the system apart.

I'm trying to point out why saying X should score Y won't work. Warning - I am going to beat this point to death.

Now that Team 7 has 5 full ups what happens next and should they remain at 9.3?
7.1 - Platforms then pulls a lib.
7.2 - Platforms then pulls a stretch.
7.3 - Platforms then pulls a lib, back to platform, then a stretch.
7.4 - Immediate lib.
7.5 - Immediate stretch.
7.6 - Immediate lib, platform, stretch.
7.7 - Immediate stretch, scorp, needle, arabesque.

PS - Team 5 had 4 total groups and Team 6 had 5 total groups.

 

[cheer36mom]

I beleive we are both talking about the same competition!!!

Here is the issue I believe we are having we send our video out to the evnt producer to be reviewed we are told our routine iis maxing out in all aspects we attend their competitions and aren't scored accordingly

 

[socratesofcheer]

I'm trying to point out why saying X should score Y won't work. Warning - I am going to beat this point to death.

Now that Team 7 has 5 full ups what happens next and should they remain at 9.3?
7.1 - Platforms then pulls a lib.
7.2 - Platforms then pulls a stretch.
7.3 - Platforms then pulls a lib, back to platform, then a stretch.
7.4 - Immediate lib.
7.5 - Immediate stretch.
7.6 - Immediate lib, platform, stretch.
7.7 - Immediate stretch, scorp, needle, arabesque.

PS - Team 5 had 4 total groups and Team 6 had 5 total groups.

How do you know X scores Y won't work?
Has it ever been put to serious testing?
If so, what were the results?
Why didn't it work?
What competition company tried it?
Who were the teams that it was tested on?
Why was it changed to the free-for-all scoring that we have now?

I still believe that you are missing the point. My original point was if there were a group of folks (wannabe judges) that went to the SOCJC they could discuss all of your examples plus some.

 

[Deleted member 15]

How do you know X=Y won't work? Has it ever been put to serious testing? If so, what were the results? What competition company tried it? Who were the teams that it was tested on? Why was it changed to the free-for-all scoring that we have now?
I still believe that you are missing the point. My original point was if there were a group of folks (wannabe judges) that went to the SOCJC they could discuss all of your examples plus some.

X=Y won't work because there are an infinite number of X's to define. We have 49 so far and haven't dismounted (which I'll get to after your next reply), been imaginative, factored in a 2nd stunt sequence, or talked about anything other than full ups.

If you would like to give every combination of stunts a score I have events on February 5th, February 26th, March 26th, and April 16th you can test it at. I suggest April 16th because it gives you the most time and the event is in New Orleans so we can hit up Pat O's, get a hurricane, and laugh about this thread when we are done.

 

[Katybugmom]

We sure expect a lot of judges in 2:30. I remeber at our first comp one girl came off upset because she tripped and landed on her butt. I totally missed it because I was watching a different area. I think this happens with the judges alot- they miss stuff we notice and we miss stuff they notice. When there is cross tumbling going on, how can they be counting the number of bhs each person did or know the percentage of the team that tumbles. I have seen some teams run a few tumblers around to do multiple passes.

 

[Drkilluzionz]

Ehh...comparisons to other sports or athletic activities can go either way...IMO having the option to seek out what your looking for in a competition is one of the unique advantages to cheerleading. For athletes and coaches alike in our program we look for competitions that:

Score on a balance of routine creativity and skill (B/c thats our style)
Offer a safe worth while venue/city
Look to have a good amount of programs in attendance

I can make a million and one scenarios but lets just use this one:
I have coached Senior 2 at our gym for the past 5 years...Sr 2 which is really 1/2 level 1 and 1/2 level 2. Let's say were down to one Orlando competition to choose from at our coaches meeting...do I choose CTC's American Open which scores almost exclusively by the quantities of elements included in your routine leaving little to no room for subjective elements? Or do I go to US Spirit whose score sheet is a bit more of a balance...where my team who doesnt have the skill of some others can still put out an above par performance and with the choreography and overall presentation scores level my playing field?

Some might call that dodging or avoidance...but I call it smart coaching and making decisions for the benefit of those I'm supposed to be coaching...and the scenario could change a million and one times...Even with one of my more "stacked" teams that I coach when it boils down to whether I had to go somewhere with a traditionally let's say "UCA style" or an "NCA style" I'd prefer the one that leans in the direction of my style...Choreography and Flash in conjunction with skill to produce an overall show...ehh...to each his own, lol