All-Star Am I The Only One? (score Sheet Talk)

[CGAcheer]

X=Y won't work because there are an infinite number of X's to define. We have 49 so far and haven't dismounted (which I'll get to after your next reply), been imaginative, factored in a 2nd stunt sequence, or talked about anything other than full ups.

Here is my scoresheet idea, that I think addresses quantity/participation issues, large/small comparative issues, makes execution valuable and will give x approximately equals y scoring but allows for different and new combinations and/or skills. It also addresses multiple stunt sequences and groups doing different stunts within the same sequence. I think it could accurately handle your 7 teams that you had previously listed.

let me know what you guys think

1-10 for difficulty with a scoring grid outlining the types of skills that would get you in the bottom, middle, and top of that range, but it is the combination of skills that gets you higher in the range.
Execution Score 1-10 based on how well they did the skills, bobbles and whatnot would be included with this score
Participation score Percentage of team involved with/performing the skills multiplied by the difficulty and the execution scores and then added together.

so lets say the level 5 score is ranged from 90 - 100

a Team of 24 does 2 ball up 360 tick tock bow and arrow double downs which for this example we will say is worth 9 in the ten point range.
and they do 3 ball up tick tock bow and arrow double downs which lets say is worth a 7.

So to score that sequence 2/5 x 9 + 3/5 x 7 would equal 7.8 for difficulty
lets say the execution was a 9 (scoring the sequence as a whole)
Since they only had 5 groups and had 24 people their Participation score would be .83 so that would give us 6.5 for participation difficulty and 7.5 for participation execution.

Then we could avg that all together and get a 7.7 for the score within the range giving us a stunt score of 97.7.

a second sequence could be scored the same way and then averaged in to create the final "stunt" score

But you would probably need to hire someone just to do the math and possibly someone to count especially in the tumbling sections.
Perhaps its overly complicated, but I think it accounts for the majority of peoples questions on score sheets.​

 

[King]

I think pointing out the faults in a scoring system and saying it is not better because it is not perfect is a copout. I think with scoring our sport you have to find the 'least worst' solution. Nothing will encompass it completely, and that is why improvement is NOT a negative thing, even if it has flaws.

 

[Ashay]

Here is the issue I believe we are having we send our video out to the evnt producer to be reviewed we are told our routine iis maxing out in all aspects we attend their competitions and aren't scored accordingly

yes this is true, we all are aware of a good routine and how to get the max points available, the problem with the last competition is they didnt score anything in the high range when they should have been. We were not the only gym with this issue!

 

[socratesofcheer]

Here is my scoresheet idea, that I think addresses quantity/participation issues, large/small comparative issues, makes execution valuable and will give x approximately equals y scoring but allows for different and new combinations and/or skills. It also addresses multiple stunt sequences and groups doing different stunts within the same sequence. I think it could accurately handle your 7 teams that you had previously listed.

let me know what you guys think

1-10 for difficulty with a scoring grid outlining the types of skills that would get you in the bottom, middle, and top of that range, but it is the combination of skills that gets you higher in the range.​

Execution Score 1-10 based on how well they did the skills, bobbles and whatnot would be included with this score​

Participation score Percentage of team involved with/performing the skills multiplied by the difficulty and the execution scores and then added together.​

so lets say the level 5 score is ranged from 90 - 100​

a Team of 24 does 2 ball up 360 tick tock bow and arrow double downs which for this example we will say is worth 9 in the ten point range.​

and they do 3 ball up tick tock bow and arrow double downs which lets say is worth a 7.​

So to score that sequence 2/5 x 9 + 3/5 x 7 would equal 7.8 for difficulty​

lets say the execution was a 9 (scoring the sequence as a whole)​

Since they only had 5 groups and had 24 people their Participation score would be .83 so that would give us 6.5 for participation difficulty and 7.5 for participation execution.​

Then we could avg that all together and get a 7.7 for the score within the range giving us a stunt score of 97.7.​

a second sequence could be scored the same way and then averaged in to create the final "stunt" score​

But you would probably need to hire someone just to do the math and possibly someone to count especially in the tumbling sections.​

Perhaps its overly complicated, but I think it accounts for the majority of peoples questions on score sheets.​

Not sure I like it or not. However, I appreciate that you came up with a logical well thought out response.

 

[cheer36mom]

yes this is true, we all are aware of a good routine and how to get the max points available, the problem with the last competition is they didnt score anything in the high range when they should have been. We were not the only gym with this issue!

im almost concerned about this upcoming comp we are attending having the same issue considering the past two with this company we have attended we have had to call and have our score sheets adjusted

 

[socratesofcheer]

X=Y won't work because there are an infinite number of X's to define. We have 49 so far and haven't dismounted (which I'll get to after your next reply), been imaginative, factored in a 2nd stunt sequence, or talked about anything other than full ups.

If you would like to give every combination of stunts a score I have events on February 5th, February 26th, March 26th, and April 16th you can test it at. I suggest April 16th because it gives you the most time and the event is in New Orleans so we can hit up Pat O's, get a hurricane, and laugh about this thread when we are done.

Are you just stuck on one minute portion of the entire proposal to see the rest. I believe the saying is "Can't see the forest because of the trees."
I have asked several questions, yet you just can't seem to get past a full up scoring 9.3. Who cares if a full up scores a 9.3, 95.1,or an A. I can come up with a score for a million combinations of stunts. You won't agree because you have your personal opinion regarding difficulty. That's why I said get a group of folks to come up with a standard of scoring for elements. I'm certain there are an infinite number of possible stunt sequences once you figure in body positions, entries, and stunt groups. However, if you have a standard for the "most popular" then you are well on your way. I would venture to guess it is far better than the "dart board" approach we have now.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Ashay - In post 37 you said "a few of us are also certified judges". Which certification are you referring to?

Socrates - In post 78 you say the Varsity System has some flaws. What are they and how would you fix them?

CGACheer - You make some great points in post 83 (and 91). Would you be kind enough to provide a detailed tumbling example as you did with stunts? Do you think averaging the stunt sequences will lead to fewer teams doing multiple stunt sequences, choosing only the higher valued sequence?

Socrates - In post 84 you say "The point is you have to have a starting point and go from there." I agree. I also think you are heading the wrong direction.

Socrates - In post 87 you say "I still believe that you are missing the point. My original point was if there were a group of folks (wannabe judges) that went to the SOCJC they could discuss all of your examples plus some." I don't think you can discuss and agree on enough to have a noticeable improvement. You implied a group could get together and do this in a few day. How long would it take you to do it for 1 level. Are you willing to do so?

King - In post 92 you say "improvement is NOT a negative thing, even if it has flaws." I agree. I don't think the suggestions made so far lead us towards improvement.

Socrates - In post 96 you say "Are you just stuck on one minute portion of the entire proposal to see the rest." The one "minute" detail I'm stuck on is how to score. Isn't that what judging is all about?

 

[King]

King - In post 92 you say "improvement is NOT a negative thing, even if it has flaws." I agree. I don't think the suggestions made so far lead us towards improvement.

Please multi quote because it alerts me you have responded!

So you aren't against improvement, but I do think you are a bit hard headed on what you think an acceptable solution is. Even a universal scoresheet with a 10% improvement over all the others OR a universal scoresheet that is on part with the best one our industry has to offer would be an improvement.

A universal scoresheet has to (and will happen). As the industry becomes more educated lots of things we speak of are inevitable. I feel you can either be a stalwart and slow it down or try to guide it to what you think will be the best way.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Please multi quote because it alerts me you have responded!

So you aren't against improvement, but I do think you are a bit hard headed on what you think an acceptable solution is. Even a universal scoresheet with a 10% improvement over all the others OR a universal scoresheet that is on part with the best one our industry has to offer would be an improvement.

A universal scoresheet has to (and will happen). As the industry becomes more educated lots of things we speak of are inevitable. I feel you can either be a stalwart and slow it down or try to guide it to what you think will be the best way.

Sorry about the multi-quote. When I went back to read this thread this morning I wasn't planning on asking questions. It's just something that happened.

I agree with everything you just said, but have questions. I am hard headed, but you already knew that. A 10% improvement would be great. How does that happen? Creating a Universal Score Sheet alone won't magically create a 10% improvement will it? Do we need to vote on which is the best one right now and turn it into the Universal or do we try to cherry pick from the existing ones. Do we say we need and are going to use a Universal before we know what it looks like. Would you be happy if it was like the IOC5 score sheet? How about IOC6? Should we create it before we say it's an improvement?

Yes, a Universal Score Sheet is inevitable. What makes you think right now is the right time for it? We've heard several complaints about score sheets in this thread and separate threads expressing concern over every score sheet the USASF released for Worlds.

I'm not be a "stalwart" and sitting on the sideline. The day Les I heard Les say he was putting together a group to work on the Universal (USASF Regional Meeting in Atlanta) I let him know I wanted to be in the group. On December 6th I got an email, as I assume several others did, asking to confirm I was still interested in working on it. To my knowledge that was the last thing done because we were heading into the holidays, but I expect work to begin/resume soon.

 

[King]

Sorry about the multi-quote. When I went back to read this thread this morning I wasn't planning on asking questions. It's just something that happened.

I agree with everything you just said, but have questions. I am hard headed, but you already knew that. A 10% improvement would be great. How does that happen? Creating a Universal Score Sheet alone won't magically create a 10% improvement will it? Do we need to vote on which is the best one right now and turn it into the Universal or do we try to cherry pick from the existing ones. Do we say we need and are going to use a Universal before we know what it looks like. Would you be happy if it was like the IOC5 score sheet? How about IOC6? Should we create it before we say it's an improvement?

Yes, a Universal Score Sheet is inevitable. What makes you think right now is the right time for it? We've heard several complaints about score sheets in this thread and separate threads expressing concern over every score sheet the USASF released for Worlds.

I'm not be a "stalwart" and sitting on the sideline. The day Les I heard Les say he was putting together a group to work on the Universal (USASF Regional Meeting in Atlanta) I let him know I wanted to be in the group. On December 6th I got an email, as I assume several others did, asking to confirm I was still interested in working on it. To my knowledge that was the last thing done because we were heading into the holidays, but I expect work to begin/resume soon.

I firmly believe that even my LEAST favorite scoresheet in cheerleading would be an improvement if it was made universal. That way things could be standardized and hence improved on. It is kinda like the 30 thing. I don't expect to see huge results next year, but the year after. A universal scoresheet might be awful the first year, but will grow from that point. And then, just like when we finally made universal rules and it was a great thing, we can improve.

 

[Ashay]

im almost concerned about this upcoming comp we are attending having the same issue considering the past two with this company we have attended we have had to call and have our score sheets adjusted

I understand your concerns and trust me we are doing everything we can to try and amke sure this issue gets resolved, I have alos spoken to other gyms and they ar eint he same boat we are! Ill let you know if I find anything out

 

[CGAcheer]

CGACheer - You make some great points in post 83 (and 91). Would you be kind enough to provide a detailed tumbling example as you did with stunts? Do you think averaging the stunt sequences will lead to fewer teams doing multiple stunt sequences, choosing only the higher valued sequence?

alright Sr 3 team with 20 kids for running tumbling
1-10 range round off tucks would be in the lower range, round off bhs tucks in the medium range and specialty through to tucks and front tucks would be in the higher range synchronized gets you higher in the range(passes without a tuck wouldn't count for any thing, so that you don't discourage coaches from including lesser skilled athletes in the routine)

sequence 1
So 3 people do no tucks (no score)
12 do round off bhs tucks with some sync passes(6)
5 higher level specialty passes (9)

(12/17 x 6) + (5/17 x 9) = 6.89
.85 participation x 6.89 = 5.86
Execution 8
.85 x 8 =6.8
AVG of 5.86 and 6.8 total for sequence = 6.33

I'm not sure of the best way to address the tumbling that happens when other stuff is going on (like the one pass during a stunt sequence, etc.) but I'll I try

Sequence 2
4 people are doing a stunt
16 synchronized Ro Tucks (5)
.80 participation
.8 x 5 = 4
execution 10
.8 x 10=8
total for sequence =6

Sequence 3
13 Synchronized Front Tucks (10)
.65 participation
.65 x 10 = 6.5
execution 7
.65 x 7= 4.55
total for sequence = 5.53

Total Running Tumbling score = 5.95

so level 3 is 70-80 which would give us 75.95

looks like it could work

you only max out with full participation well executed synchronized highly difficult skills

 

[yojaehs]

Solution to score sheet issues. EVERY judge sits in a room watches every video from last years season. If they get anything wrong Andre hits them with a tazor.

 

[Deleted member 15]

alright Sr 3 team with 20 kids for running tumbling
1-10 range round off tucks would be in the lower range, round off bhs tucks in the medium range and specialty through to tucks and front tucks would be in the higher range synchronized gets you higher in the range(passes without a tuck wouldn't count for any thing, so that you don't discourage coaches from including lesser skilled athletes in the routine)

sequence 1
So 3 people do no tucks (no score)
12 do round off bhs tucks with some sync passes(6)
5 higher level specialty passes (9)

(12/17 x 6) + (5/17 x 9) = 6.89
.85 participation x 6.89 = 5.86
Execution 8
.85 x 8 =6.8
AVG of 5.86 and 6.8 total for sequence = 6.33

I'm not sure of the best way to address the tumbling that happens when other stuff is going on (like the one pass during a stunt sequence, etc.) but I'll I try

Sequence 2
4 people are doing a stunt
16 synchronized Ro Tucks (5)
.80 participation
.8 x 5 = 4
execution 10
.8 x 10=8
total for sequence =6

Sequence 3
13 Synchronized Front Tucks (10)
.65 participation
.65 x 10 = 6.5
execution 7
.65 x 7= 4.55
total for sequence = 5.53

Total Running Tumbling score = 5.95

so level 3 is 70-80 which would give us 75.95

looks like it could work

you only max out with full participation well executed synchronized highly difficult skills

I'm going to have to read this again tonight.

The invite to New Orleans is open to you too.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Solution to score sheet issues. EVERY judge sits in a room watches every video from last years season. If they get anything wrong Andre hits them with a tazor.

I think most people would like to hit me with the taser right now.