All-Star Athlete/parent Intimidation

[TheDivineCheerYaYaSecret]

I am moving my reply to a comment in a parent area thread out here because I would like to read some open discussion about this topic. I know I have read these kinds of things before but I am amazed that the culture continues. Maybe I'm crazy and I see things the wrong way. In that case I crave the shared experiences that can help me see that as well. Apparently a World's level athlete was removed from their team during practice because busy body parents at the athlete's gym saw a picture of the athlete with another gym's athlete on social media and the parents have the Coach(es)' ear. My intent isn't to discuss this particular situation. I have no idea who the athlete is, what gym this is, or what team it is. I am just using this as a jumping off point.

Here is my comment:

Absolutely ridiculous. So very sad and ridiculous. Why do gyms, owners, and coaches think they own these athletes? Why do they think that their behavior is somehow justified? An athlete on a World's team knows there are others that could take their position at any gym, even if the place taker isn't the whole package. It doesn't matter if the coaches continually say it or not. You aren't on a level 5 team without knowing it. Unless you are Suzie and that is a whole different discussion. But that doesn't mean an athlete is somehow the property of the gym!

Is this happening (not at this gym but at any gym) because even sane, rational Mothers are afraid of speaking up when needed for fear that their CP may not be on a certain team the next season?

We are PAYING for a service! The gym isn't paying us!!!

What is wrong with letting the athlete's skills place them on the correct team?! Why are people living vicariously through their children?!

I am not saying we should be constantly talking, complaining, moaning, and speculating to the coaches but if you are the parent it is your job to determine when you need to speak up when needed for the sake of your child and to actually speak to the Owner or Coaches instead of talking about it in the parent room with other parents.

I'll say this. No gym is perfect. I know mine isn't and I know from reading on this board that the gym we belong to has been discussed more than once in a less than positive light. I have no issue with any of it. This is a board and open discussion about cheer and things related to it are what it is supposed to be about.

I can say that our gym has no issues whatsoever with an athlete of any level attending an open gym, tumbling class, private, clinic or what have you at any other gym. The gym's "motto" so to speak is "Program first, team second, individual third". It seems to be working quite well for them. Completely second hand but I have been told that at some point people were asking our Owners why it was okay for some of our athletes to tumble at another gym. My understanding is that they basically replied that what did it matter if they tumbled at another gym? That if that was what the athlete needed then let them tumble there. That it only helped our program by having the athletes become stronger in their skills by learning from whomever could teach that athlete the best!

Now I can say without any hesitation that any other cheer gym in our geographical area does not reciprocate this feeling if one of their athletes comes to our gym (or any other) for anything at all. I know that first hand. My own CP just this past weekend at a comp was talking to one of her friends that belongs to another gym congratulating the athlete on a great performance when that athletes coaches started yelling at the athlete for talking to my CP because of the uniform she was wearing!!!! What makes it worse is that they know my CP well as she tumbled at their gym for a few months late last year!

Hey owners, coaches, and crazy a** parents (yes I am including the parents because they can be the worst) news flash:

If you are continually delivering a high quality product and or service to your customers there is no reason to feel threatened by your competition. If you are continually losing your customers to another provider of the same service then your energy would probably best be used by evaluating your own services rather than relying on intimidating your athletes and their parents to stay at your gym.

I haven't ever tried to be secretive about which program we cheer for. I have tried to stay away from commenting on any finger pointing or heated discussion about our gym if it comes up because 1. I don't own the program, 2. While I may have some knowledge about something I certainly do not have all of it and therefore I am not really the correct person to comment or respond, and 3. Even when I do have pretty much all the knowledge about something it just isn't the time, or it just isn't that important, or others opinions don't matter, or it just isn't worth it, or I simply prefer letting it go and focusing on supporting my CP, her team, and her program from within so that they can continue to improve, grow and be the best they can be.

I don't drink the kool-aid from anywhere. I am incredibly supportive of whatever organization my children are heavily involved with in the activities of their choice from college football to the riding barn to the cheer gym. I have done my research. I know my children. I know how they learn, their strengths, their weaknesses, and what they need from their instructors. I trust their instructors. I trust their programs. If I ever lost that trust then we would make the change that would be needed for my child.

No amount of Owner/Coach intimidation would keep me there. I have never been one to tolerate a bully.

 

[shorttpai]

Somewhat related, but I did not realize how absurd it is for our gym to not let us go to any gyms for whatever reason. In our signed handbook it states that we will be kicked off if we attend another gym for tumbling classes or go to their open gyms. I do not go to the best cheer gym I will admit, we practice in a gymnastics gym. I do not take tumbling classes there (it is filled with only young, gymnastics kids. so the only time my team tumbles is at practice) and they do not offer open gyms for us either. So my teammate went to an open gym at another local gym, posted a picture, and was told by our coach she was supposed to be kicked off the team. I agree with your post, if they are delivering high quality cheering why should they have to worry? It seems ridiculous because we are the customers.

 

[littlestALLSTAR]

What a great post, it totally hits home for me.
Let me say, I am greatful to be currently part of a gym that allows us to tumble wherever we please, visit whatever gym we please and are encouraged to form relationships with families from other all-star gyms. It's an awesome gym culture. However.....
A few years ago we were part of an organization that clung to the 'paranoid' mentality you speak of. It was awful. We left quietly, at the end of our season, after a meeting with the directors and being accused of some pretty interesting things, all false and made up by a suck up, kool aid drinking SM. Once you leave that gym, you are basically dead to them, so when a very close friend to my child made the mistake of mentioning my CPs name at tryouts and was told by a coach 'we don't say that name here' I knew we had made the right decision to leave.
Now The friends we made there have to covertly visit us, camps and clinics outside of their gym are strictly forbidden. Pictures can't be posted, no one can know. It's just so sad.
I'm sharing this post with some non fierce board friends that could use a gentle nudge in the direction of greener grass.

 

[uhhlyssa01]

I don't know anything of the situation and it sounds like an extreme reaction, however I had heard instances where a kid that is already planning to leave a program starts recruiting their teammates from within before the competition season is even over, in which I could see where some gym owners might choose to release them early. The gym doesn't own the kids, but I would believe they would have a contract or code of conduct signed that states they will commit to the team for the entire season. At that point its like a McDonald's employee recruiting everyone to go over Burger King, no manager is going to allow that to happen inside their own walls.

However the way it is described, the gym owner/coach in the post above took things to the extreme without getting the proper info first, in which case I would completely agree with the OP. My point is there is always two sides to every story.

 

[EmmytheFlyer]

I am moving my reply to a comment in a parent area thread out here because I would like to read some open discussion about this topic. I know I have read these kinds of things before but I am amazed that the culture continues. Maybe I'm crazy and I see things the wrong way. In that case I crave the shared experiences that can help me see that as well. Apparently a World's level athlete was removed from their team during practice because busy body parents at the athlete's gym saw a picture of the athlete with another gym's athlete on social media and the parents have the Coach(es)' ear. My intent isn't to discuss this particular situation. I have no idea who the athlete is, what gym this is, or what team it is. I am just using this as a jumping off point.

Here is my comment:

Absolutely ridiculous. So very sad and ridiculous. Why do gyms, owners, and coaches think they own these athletes? Why do they think that their behavior is somehow justified? An athlete on a World's team knows there are others that could take their position at any gym, even if the place taker isn't the whole package. It doesn't matter if the coaches continually say it or not. You aren't on a level 5 team without knowing it. Unless you are Suzie and that is a whole different discussion. But that doesn't mean an athlete is somehow the property of the gym!

Is this happening (not at this gym but at any gym) because even sane, rational Mothers are afraid of speaking up when needed for fear that their CP may not be on a certain team the next season?

We are PAYING for a service! The gym isn't paying us!!!

What is wrong with letting the athlete's skills place them on the correct team?! Why are people living vicariously through their children?!

I am not saying we should be constantly talking, complaining, moaning, and speculating to the coaches but if you are the parent it is your job to determine when you need to speak up when needed for the sake of your child and to actually speak to the Owner or Coaches instead of talking about it in the parent room with other parents.

I'll say this. No gym is perfect. I know mine isn't and I know from reading on this board that the gym we belong to has been discussed more than once in a less than positive light. I have no issue with any of it. This is a board and open discussion about cheer and things related to it are what it is supposed to be about.

I can say that our gym has no issues whatsoever with an athlete of any level attending an open gym, tumbling class, private, clinic or what have you at any other gym. The gym's "motto" so to speak is "Program first, team second, individual third". It seems to be working quite well for them. Completely second hand but I have been told that at some point people were asking our Owners why it was okay for some of our athletes to tumble at another gym. My understanding is that they basically replied that what did it matter if they tumbled at another gym? That if that was what the athlete needed then let them tumble there. That it only helped our program by having the athletes become stronger in their skills by learning from whomever could teach that athlete the best!

Now I can say without any hesitation that any other cheer gym in our geographical area does not reciprocate this feeling if one of their athletes comes to our gym (or any other) for anything at all. I know that first hand. My own CP just this past weekend at a comp was talking to one of her friends that belongs to another gym congratulating the athlete on a great performance when that athletes coaches started yelling at the athlete for talking to my CP because of the uniform she was wearing!!!! What makes it worse is that they know my CP well as she tumbled at their gym for a few months late last year!

Hey owners, coaches, and crazy a** parents (yes I am including the parents because they can be the worst) news flash:

If you are continually delivering a high quality product and or service to your customers there is no reason to feel threatened by your competition. If you are continually losing your customers to another provider of the same service then your energy would probably best be used by evaluating your own services rather than relying on intimidating your athletes and their parents to stay at your gym.

I haven't ever tried to be secretive about which program we cheer for. I have tried to stay away from commenting on any finger pointing or heated discussion about our gym if it comes up because 1. I don't own the program, 2. While I may have some knowledge about something I certainly do not have all of it and therefore I am not really the correct person to comment or respond, and 3. Even when I do have pretty much all the knowledge about something it just isn't the time, or it just isn't that important, or others opinions don't matter, or it just isn't worth it, or I simply prefer letting it go and focusing on supporting my CP, her team, and her program from within so that they can continue to improve, grow and be the best they can be.

I don't drink the kool-aid from anywhere. I am incredibly supportive of whatever organization my children are heavily involved with in the activities of their choice from college football to the riding barn to the cheer gym. I have done my research. I know my children. I know how they learn, their strengths, their weaknesses, and what they need from their instructors. I trust their instructors. I trust their programs. If I ever lost that trust then we would make the change that would be needed for my child.

No amount of Owner/Coach intimidation would keep me there. I have never been one to tolerate a bully.

This.

I also feel that some* parents lose a wee bit of reality in that, this is a youth sport. Your CP's cheer "status" (and the parents, as well) when your CP was 8, 12, even 17 years old - these experiences, while awesome and meaningful, aren't going to mean much in the long run for most except to provide memories. I played softball for 18 years competively - how does this affect me now? It doesn't. Except for the great memories from it, and the qualities that I obtained from the experience like teamwork, dedication, compassion, competitiveness...

Do you want your CP to have good memories from this window in their life, or do you want them to remember how stressed and dramatic their cheer experience was for their parent and themselves? More parents need to ask themselves this question. Don't settle just because your kid is at 'xyz' gym the most elite gym in the universe.....which treats you like you're a victim of Mean Girls at a small private school in the smallest city in the area.

For me, irregardless of what gym you're at-it's about the kids, the friendships, the bonds that are made. It's about my CP coming home from practice or competition smiling and not upset or mad - or her seeing me upset or mad. Likewise, if I am paying for a service, I expect to be treated as a valued customer, and my daughter treated with respect. And our gym fulfills this need for us. It's a great balance of both.

Life is short and before you know it, your CP may be on their way to college and out of the house. Be happy. Pick a gym that makes you happy. And if it works for you - then this experience will be full of great memories for both you and your CP. Isn't that what life is about?

Your dollar talks. Use it wisely.

 

[NJ Coach]

Lord knows we have kids that go to other gyms for tumbling, and we have other gyms kids come to us for tumbling. It really shouldn't make a difference, but for some reason, some gyms are really bothered by it. The only time I personally have had an issue with it is when there are hints (or actual) recruiting going on, but 99.9% of the time, it's really just tumbling.

Most of us around here have friendly relationships, and most of our kids know each other outside of cheer. There's a healthy rivalry, but usually no more than that.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Lord knows we have kids that go to other gyms for tumbling, and we have other gyms kids come to us for tumbling. It really shouldn't make a difference, but for some reason, some gyms are really bothered by it. The only time I personally have had an issue with it is when there are hints (or actual) recruiting going on, but 99.9% of the time, it's really just tumbling.

Most of us around here have friendly relationships, and most of our kids know each other outside of cheer. There's a healthy rivalry, but usually no more than that.

I agree. I think what has happened is the recruiting of athletes - whether it is by other athletes, parents or coaches from other programs over many years is what is driving this. For years we have known of programs that openly said (as coaches) we dont recruit, yet their parents and kids did because they were offered scholarships for athletes of other programs that they brought in. Basically a finders fee. Coaches that say they don't recruit yet you see where the coach has sent text messages, fb messages, etc to the athlete and the parent. Gyms offering free rides and coaching jobs to higher level older athletes to switch. All of this has gotten many programs worried about this happening when their athletes go to other gyms. It is quite ego inflating to be "recruited" to be sure and many athletes, parents and coaches simply do not know how to handle it.

The thing is no matter how well I train or treat my athletes, I can't stop them from being recruited. All I can do is give them the best learning environment possible and pray they remain committed to the what we are trying to do. Some leave. Some return. Most stay. I have had athletes of all ages and skill sets go to other gyms to tumble and come back knowing the care and plan that we have for them is way different than other gyms. And they know when they are being taught is improper technique or when a coach is just trying to get them to do a skill to show them they can get it at their gym.

IN NO WAY should an athlete be intimidated to stay. You can have program rules, and enforce them. But not intimidated or coerced.

Now I also feel that if this was stunting as opposed to tumbling, there would be a much different perspective. The concept that anybody can teach tumbling so it doesn't matter where you go has always infuriated me. As a tumbling coach I know what I am training an athlete to do SAFELY, with minimal amount of spots and a reasonable timeline for it. I share it with the parents and athlete often. But I have had enough kids training a new skill, go to a different gym, told to just do it (cause we were holding them back) and come back injured or with a mental block. I hate cleaning up messes like that from tumbling everywhere, but it happens more than we like to think.

 

[NJ Coach]

I agree. I think what has happened is the recruiting of athletes - whether it is by other athletes, parents or coaches from other programs over many years is what is driving this. For years we have known of programs that openly said (as coaches) we dont recruit, yet their parents and kids did because they were offered scholarships for athletes of other programs that they brought in. Basically a finders fee. Coaches that say they don't recruit yet you see where the coach has sent text messages, fb messages, etc to the athlete and the parent. Gyms offering free rides and coaching jobs to higher level older athletes to switch. All of this has gotten many programs worried about this happening when their athletes go to other gyms. It is quite ego inflating to be "recruited" to be sure and many athletes, parents and coaches simply do not know how to handle it.

The thing is no matter how well I train or treat my athletes, I can't stop them from being recruited. All I can do is give them the best learning environment possible and pray they remain committed to the what we are trying to do. Some leave. Some return. Most stay. I have had athletes of all ages and skill sets go to other gyms to tumble and come back knowing the care and plan that we have for them is way different than other gyms. And they know when they are being taught is improper technique or when a coach is just trying to get them to do a skill to show them they can get it at their gym. LOL.

Now I also feel that if this was stunting as opposed to tumbling, there would be a much different perspective. The concept that anybody can teach tumbling so it doesn't matter where you go has always infuriated me. As a tumbling coach I know what I am training an athlete to do SAFELY, with minimal amount of spots and a reasonable timeline for it. I share it with the parents and athlete often. But I have had enough kids training a new skill, go to a different gym, told to just do it (cause we were holding them back) and come back injured or with a mental block. I hate cleaning up messes like that from tumbling everywhere, but it happens more than we like to think.

I agree on all points. I've always (and always worked at places) had the mindset of our routines will do our recruiting. The only time I have ever reached out to a kid was not long after I made the switch to my current gym, and I knew 100% they were not cheering anywhere (they were former athletes of mine that had stopped cheering). I've never understood why coaches actively recruit kids they know are cheering elsewhere. But, it has been my experience, the recruited family is happy for a little while. Once those promises start to fade, they either go back, or find some place new.

We don't have any issues with our kids going elsewhere to tumble. Sometimes they tumble other places because it's closer to where they live, they like the tumble coach, they go with friends or any one of a million reasons. Am I always a fan of it, no. Especially when they tell me they're working higher level skills than they are ready for. Stunting other places I would probably side eye real hard.

 

[TheDivineCheerYaYaSecret]

Recruiting is just plain wrong, and parent's of athletes that are changing gyms recruiting? Let's just say that there should be a special area of Hell for them. I hadn't even thought of that but I can see where that would not be welcome. Thank you for making that point.

 

[Carriejoe]

Recruiting is just plain wrong, and parent's of athletes that are changing gyms recruiting? Let's just say that there should be a special area of Hell for them. I hadn't even thought of that but I can see where that would not be welcome. Thank you for making that point.

I agree. We switched gyms this year but we didn't tell anyone about it other than our old gym owners. They actually asked who were "taking with us". So I guess that can be something that happens.

It never crossed my mind to tell people of our plans nor ask them to join us! Would I like to have my friends with us? Sure! But would I recruit them? Heck no. That is just wrong on so many levels.

 

[Cheerfan1234]

I agree. I think what has happened is the recruiting of athletes - whether it is by other athletes, parents or coaches from other programs over many years is what is driving this. For years we have known of programs that openly said (as coaches) we dont recruit, yet their parents and kids did because they were offered scholarships for athletes of other programs that they brought in. Basically a finders fee. Coaches that say they don't recruit yet you see where the coach has sent text messages, fb messages, etc to the athlete and the parent. Gyms offering free rides and coaching jobs to higher level older athletes to switch. All of this has gotten many programs worried about this happening when their athletes go to other gyms. It is quite ego inflating to be "recruited" to be sure and many athletes, parents and coaches simply do not know how to handle it.

The thing is no matter how well I train or treat my athletes, I can't stop them from being recruited. All I can do is give them the best learning environment possible and pray they remain committed to the what we are trying to do. Some leave. Some return. Most stay. I have had athletes of all ages and skill sets go to other gyms to tumble and come back knowing the care and plan that we have for them is way different than other gyms. And they know when they are being taught is improper technique or when a coach is just trying to get them to do a skill to show them they can get it at their gym.

IN NO WAY should an athlete be intimidated to stay. You can have program rules, and enforce them. But not intimidated or coerced.

Now I also feel that if this was stunting as opposed to tumbling, there would be a much different perspective. The concept that anybody can teach tumbling so it doesn't matter where you go has always infuriated me. As a tumbling coach I know what I am training an athlete to do SAFELY, with minimal amount of spots and a reasonable timeline for it. I share it with the parents and athlete often. But I have had enough kids training a new skill, go to a different gym, told to just do it (cause we were holding them back) and come back injured or with a mental block. I hate cleaning up messes like that from tumbling everywhere, but it happens more than we like to think.

I totally agree...Team A sending out an invitation to try out for their premier team to a girl on Team B that's dated a week before this girl even competes with Team B at Worlds. Then being told by parents from Team A that have switched to Team B about all the horrible, untrue things that have been said about the coaches from Team B that have been burned into all of their athletes' heads...It's this type of slick, dirty behavior and nudging to come to come to greener grass, mostly initiated by adults , that creates an atmosphere of ridiculous rivalries and shade, and I can see why some gyms wouldn't want to associate with one another as long as it's civil. There's nothing wrong with that either.

Most coaches don't want athletes stunting or tumbling at other gyms to avoid injury and to avoid being taught improper technique..Again, I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

You're right, athletes shouldn't be intimidated to stay...and in this day and age, most athletes and parents don't have a problem leaving anyway. If someone doesn't wanna be there, let them go. No need to beg or make phone calls.

 

[littlestALLSTAR]

Rolling my eyes at the insinuation that I have ever recruited athletes. My child was seven when we left former gym. Me and my minions of minis did not leave en mass.
Throw your shade in a different direction please.
This is directed at you @Cheerfan1234, my apologies for not being clear.
Using the phrasing 'slick dirty behavior' in regards to a phrase I used in an earlier post to this thread. Ridiculous.

 

[dawgshow]

Is it bad that I see nothing wrong with a gym mentioning "we'd love to have you next season" or me saying to friends (who I know aren't happy) at our old gym "you ought to come check it out for next season". Personally, I think the line is only crossed when an athlete is asked to leave mid season.
With the complete lack of off season, when are business supposed to try to grow? <<<<< sincere question.

 

[amy1k]

This is another weird, cheer/gymnastics specific thing. I see recruiting happening in youth baseball all the time. I don't think anyone even cares...there are always plenty of athletes to fill the spots.

 

[FlexyTumblerMom]

I find it hard to believe that an athlete who was about to switch gyms at the end of the season would be able to convince their teammates to switch as well *if those teammates weren't already thinking of switching anyways*.

And what is the gym going to gain by kicking the athlete out? - it's not like they can prevent their remaining athletes from talking to their ex-teammate forever (and if they tried to go that far, honestly, they deserve to have people leave them)?

I agree w/ the OP that the way to retain your athletes is to offer a good product. If people want to try what else is out there for a season or two, as long as you gave them good training and a positive experience they should realize the grass isn't greener and return. Gyms that treat athletes that switch to other programs badly are not thinking of things from a business perspective - wish them luck and tell them they are welcome to return if they change their mind is the best way to handle IMO.