All-Star Coaches Judging At Competitions

[Cheer Dad]

Recent thread has me thinking of this.

Should a coach associated with a program competing at a competition be a judge at the same competition even if not judging their teams?

I know judges will say they can be impartial, and some truly can, with no favoritism towards their program but do the other judges on the panel possibly give those teams the benefit of the doubt or preferential scoring because one of their coworkers is with that program?

Even though all may be on the up and up does the appearance of conflict create an issue?

@ASCheerMan I know you are very busy but what are your thoughts and maybe Varsity's position?


Cheer Dad = broke dad

 

[yooolizzi]

I think it's fine!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[12stepCheermom]

One of our coaches judged return to Atlantis a few years back but our program wasn't there. I think that's fine because I imagine a fair amount of the judging pool probably does coach somewhere.

I think outside of that it gets sketchy. Even if the coach is the poster child for integrity, and not judging their own teams it's still going to look...well...sketchy. If I'm that person or that competition, I'd rather not open the door for that sortof speculation or rumor mongering.

That being said, the volume of judges needed at an event like NCA or CHEERSPORT might make that more or less impossible. So if there's no other choice, ensure they aren't judging their own teams, but it's better for everyone to only have judges who either aren't affiliated with programs (ideal) or only affiliated with programs that aren't attending (preferable).


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[Pebbles49]

Hey CheerDad, just like in the real world such as the judiciary systems and even other sports...Cheerleading in order to be looked upon as a legitimate organization should recognize that any potential or alleged accusations of cheating, payouts and favoritisms can be immediately shut down by making sure the panel of judging are neutral and unbiased to all teams competing... Regardless, if this coach thinks or says that they can be impartial, it is almost human nature to love what is most familiar to you (home team) and the scoring is going to reflect this in some way...
Btw, I know as a CheerMom, if I know ahead of time that my daughter will be judged by an employee of the organization, right away, I will be that CheerMom in the corner shamefully crying how unfair this competition is and we need impartial judging...lol

 

[Ashley]

I think it's okay if they're coaching, say, dance and their gym is only competing there with dance. But otherwise, no. I don't think they should be judging at an event their teams are at.

 

[King]

It is tough... if everyone is competing at a comp then who is judging? Because, in general, the best judges are the ones still coaching teams. Those who have been on the front lines recently, if you will.

 

[Mclovin]

As long as they are not judging a division that one of their teams is competing in, then it doesn't bother me. Good judges are VERY hard to come by.

 

[icame2WERQ]

I think it's ok. If it's a varsity event as a judge you are only judging 1 category. Jumps/tumbling, stunts, dance, deductions or overall. Granted if the scores are close it might have some effect.

If it is a panel of a coaching staff judging an event that their program was at, that might be somewhat suspect.


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[ASCheerMan]

Recent thread has me thinking of this.

Should a coach associated with a program competing at a competition be a judge at the same competition even if not judging their teams?

I know judges will say they can be impartial, and some truly can, with no favoritism towards their program but do the other judges on the panel possibly give those teams the benefit of the doubt or preferential scoring because one of their coworkers is with that program?

Even though all may be on the up and up does the appearance of conflict create an issue?

@ASCheerMan I know you are very busy but what are your thoughts and maybe Varsity's position?


Cheer Dad = broke dad

I don't know that there's a black and white answer. It depends on the situation and the event. I would avoid it at most events, but at the same time, a good judge is a good judge.


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[BigBow]

I don't judge, but I feel like if I did and was judging at a competition my program was at, I would end up judging them harder than the other teams. When you're watching a routine you know and have seen over and over, you know where to look...whether it be a stunt you know isn't as consistent as the others, or a tumbling pass that isn't quite perfect, or you just know what their potential is in general so you have an expectation. That always happens to me when I'm watching my team perform....then I watch the video immediately after and I'm like oh wait, that was good

 

[juscheerthatisall]

I agree with @BigBow 100%. As a judge I don't work at competitions where my program is competing so that there is no speculation of bias. However, I honestly feel that my teams would be at a disadvantage if I judged them. When you know the routine you see all imperfections! As soon as my team walks off the floor I'm running down every mistake, whereas others are complimenting me on how good they look. On the flip side it doesn't bother me if coaches judge at events where their team is present, especially if they don't judge their team. The "preferential treatment for coworker" argument is not valid because if I'm not on the panel and I'm standing in front of my team the judges are still my coworkers and could still give me that same treatment.

 

[MomMomMamaMom]

I have yet to be at a competition where, as a parent, I would even know who any of the judges were, much less if they coached at any of the programs present. That being said, I would hate to be on a team that comes up against the coach's program's other teams on a regular basis, and know that one of their coaches was a judge, even if it were in another division. I think that by nature, the level of scrutiny would seem impartial. I get the point that people are very hard on their own teams, etc. But think that in a small community, where there are even healthy rivalries, that bias would be VERY difficult to avoid. No matter how trained, or fair the coach/judge is, if they are actively competing, and consistently have a stake in how any of their rival programs place, I think it would be ideal if they were not involved in judging them.

I am intrigued by how people are saying that current coaches, etc. would be the most qualified judges. I am not sure , yet, if I agree. I see where their training and real life experience would be beneficial, and I also see that there is a limited pool of qualified judges to begin with. I am interested in hearing more of why people like this idea? I really don't like how in cheer there are too many crossovers between interests as an industry, and would rather have judges be judges, coaches be coaches, EPs be EPs and the rules be completely separate, but see that this may not be viable.

Questions that occur to me... Which I am honestly asking, no preconceived notions of the answers....

How does a coach who also judges for a "brand" they compete at not have an unfair advantage? They presumably have access to inside information about scoring, have relationships with people who score them, and have an ability to influence outcomes for other programs. Additionally, they have some influence on the information that they give to other teams( ie the comments they provide on the scoresheet).

What makes an active coach a better qualified judge?

In what way is there a disclosure made that the judge is a coach of what team? Is this done prior to the decision to compete at a given event must be made?

Who makes up the judging panels of other subjectively judged sports?




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[Pebbles49]

I have yet to be at a competition where, as a parent, I would even know who any of the judges were, much less if they coached at any of the programs present. That being said, I would hate to be on a team that comes up against the coach's program's other teams on a regular basis, and know that one of their coaches was a judge, even if it were in another division. I think that by nature, the level of scrutiny would seem impartial. I get the point that people are very hard on their own teams, etc. But think that in a small community, where there are even healthy rivalries, that bias would be VERY difficult to avoid. No matter how trained, or fair the coach/judge is, if they are actively competing, and consistently have a stake in how any of their rival programs place, I think it would be ideal if they were not involved in judging them.

I am intrigued by how people are saying that current coaches, etc. would be the most qualified judges. I am not sure , yet, if I agree. I see where their training and real life experience would be beneficial, and I also see that there is a limited pool of qualified judges to begin with. I am interested in hearing more of why people like this idea? I really don't like how in cheer there are too many crossovers between interests as an industry, and would rather have judges be judges, coaches be coaches, EPs be EPs and the rules be completely separate, but see that this may not be viable.

Questions that occur to me... Which I am honestly asking, no preconceived notions of the answers....

How does a coach who also judges for a "brand" they compete at not have an unfair advantage? They presumably have access to inside information about scoring, have relationships with people who score them, and have an ability to influence outcomes for other programs. Additionally, they have some influence on the information that they give to other teams( ie the comments they provide on the scoresheet).

What makes an active coach a better qualified judge?

In what way is there a disclosure made that the judge is a coach of what team? Is this done prior to the decision to compete at a given event must be made?

Who makes up the judging panels of other subjectively judged sports?




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I agree wholeheartedly with your statements... Maybe we are limited in terms of judging, but we need to have the presumption that fair judging is going to occur at all events... I definitely disagree with those who claim that a coach at the same event judging will be more inclined to be harder on their own teams... I highly doubt that a coach will downgrade their team performance and will judge them harder, that is like telling me that if a parent is judging their child or close family member performance against a stranger, they are going scored the stranger higher because they know their child could have perform that tumbling pass better or they seen their child perform the routine technically better in practice... (I highly doubt it!)

Again, I still believe to even the playing field at any and all competitions, no inside shenanigans... That coach should bow out graciously,,, just like any judge on a court case, surgeon performing surgery on a family member or even a teacher, teaching a course with their child in the class...JMO

 

[juscheerthatisall]

I have yet to be at a competition where, as a parent, I would even know who any of the judges were, much less if they coached at any of the programs present. That being said, I would hate to be on a team that comes up against the coach's program's other teams on a regular basis, and know that one of their coaches was a judge, even if it were in another division. I think that by nature, the level of scrutiny would seem impartial. I get the point that people are very hard on their own teams, etc. But think that in a small community, where there are even healthy rivalries, that bias would be VERY difficult to avoid. No matter how trained, or fair the coach/judge is, if they are actively competing, and consistently have a stake in how any of their rival programs place, I think it would be ideal if they were not involved in judging them.

I am intrigued by how people are saying that current coaches, etc. would be the most qualified judges. I am not sure , yet, if I agree. I see where their training and real life experience would be beneficial, and I also see that there is a limited pool of qualified judges to begin with. I am interested in hearing more of why people like this idea? I really don't like how in cheer there are too many crossovers between interests as an industry, and would rather have judges be judges, coaches be coaches, EPs be EPs and the rules be completely separate, but see that this may not be viable.

Questions that occur to me... Which I am honestly asking, no preconceived notions of the answers....

How does a coach who also judges for a "brand" they compete at not have an unfair advantage? They presumably have access to inside information about scoring, have relationships with people who score them, and have an ability to influence outcomes for other programs. Additionally, they have some influence on the information that they give to other teams( ie the comments they provide on the scoresheet).

What makes an active coach a better qualified judge?

In what way is there a disclosure made that the judge is a coach of what team? Is this done prior to the decision to compete at a given event must be made?

Who makes up the judging panels of other subjectively judged sports?




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I can only speak from my own experience:
I want to reiterate I do NOT judge at competitions where my program is present however I do judge programs I have worked with, choreographed, done clinics/clean up for etc. sometimes I have to catch myself from being harder on them, it really can happen unintentionally. For example-lets say the center pyramid group misses an element but makes a clean recovery and keeps going, if I didn't know the routine I would think it was choreographed that way but since I know the routine I would score lower for pyramid execution. So as a rule of thumb I ask (would I have noticed that if I didn't know the routine) .

I think its important to understand, There are very few points on the score sheet that are left to the Judges discretion. EP's give a grid that says if you do XYZ you will score XYZ so it doesn't matter whether I love you or hate you I have to give you that score. There is also a head judge that verifies teams are in the correct range and then coaches look at their difficulties scores and verify that what they received is correct. Having said all this I knew in August what my team would score and I make sure that's what they received before I leave the competition it really doesn't matter who the judge is. Now of course there is some space on the scoresheet that allows for subjectivity and don't think I'm saying no bias can occur I'm not naive just shedding light on the entire process.

Should coaches be able to judge? Absolutely. The best judges are those who are the most knowledgeable/involved in the industry. It would be wonderful if people could judge full time and make a living but thats not the case. To be profitable you have to be a coach/judge/choreographer/camp instructor/music producer/uniform rep or some combination of the above. So as a coach my question would be do I want to be judged by a fellow coach who understands the scoring system and MAY (big may) be bias for the 5/10 of a point they have control over? Or be judged by someone with no knowledge of the industry who just shows up to judge?

Last point (and again just speaking for me) I judge as a form of income. Whether Sally Mae's team beats Susie Nae's is not worth me losing my job over. I leave before results are announced, I don't see what the other judges scores looked liked, 99% of the time I have no idea where teams placed and the other 1% I don't remember their routine as I have sat thru 100+ . So it doesn't mean a whole lot when I see it.

Also want to add: all of my opinions are in reference to non world bid events. I have a different set of opinions as it relates to judging worlds team in which case I think the judges should not still be active coaches of worlds eligible teams.

 

[MomMomMamaMom]

I can only speak from my own experience:
I want to reiterate I do NOT judge at competitions where my program is present however I do judge programs I have worked with, choreographed, done clinics/clean up for etc. sometimes I have to catch myself from being harder on them, it really can happen unintentionally. For example-lets say the center pyramid group misses an element but makes a clean recovery and keeps going, if I didn't know the routine I would think it was choreographed that way but since I know the routine I would score lower for pyramid execution. So as a rule of thumb I ask (would I have noticed that if I didn't know the routine) .

I think its important to understand, There are very few points on the score sheet that are left to the Judges discretion. EP's give a grid that says if you do XYZ you will score XYZ so it doesn't matter whether I love you or hate you I have to give you that score. There is also a head judge that verifies teams are in the correct range and then coaches look at their difficulties scores and verify that what they received is correct. Having said all this I knew in August what my team would score and I make sure that's what they received before I leave the competition it really doesn't matter who the judge is. Now of course there is some space on the scoresheet that allows for subjectivity and don't think I'm saying no bias can occur I'm not naive just shedding light on the entire process.

Should coaches be able to judge? Absolutely. The best judges are those who are the most knowledgeable/involved in the industry. It would be wonderful if people could judge full time and make a living but thats not the case. To be profitable you have to be a coach/judge/choreographer/camp instructor/music producer/uniform rep or some combination of the above. So as a coach my question would be do I want to be judged by a fellow coach who understands the scoring system and MAY (big may) be bias for the 5/10 of a point they have control over? Or be judged by someone with no knowledge of the industry who just shows up to judge?

Last point (and again just speaking for me) I judge as a form of income. Whether Sally Mae's team beats Susie Nae's is not worth me losing my job over. I leave before results are announced, I don't see what the other judges scores looked liked, 99% of the time I have no idea where teams placed and the other 1% I don't remember their routine as I have sat thru 100+ . So it doesn't mean a whole lot when I see it.

Also want to add: all of my opinions are in reference to non world bid events. I have a different set of opinions as it relates to judging worlds team in which case I think the judges should not still be active coaches of worlds eligible teams.

Thank you for your answers. I honestly hadn't even thought about the fact that judging would not be a lucrative career. And what you are saying makes sense to me.

I understand what you are saying about the ranges, etc. and see your point. Also find it helpful to know that as a coach you are not opposed to other coaches judging you.

I am curious to know if you think that there are any advantages to your being a judge other than your obvious level of expertise? Presumably all coaches could educate themselves enough in the range information, at least for their own team(s). But is there an advantage to knowing the ins and outs of how other teams are scoring? Regardless of certain ranges, I have personally experienced a lot of variation in comps that use the same scoring grids, so I am curious. I mean for when you compete yourself, not judge?


Do the other programs you do compete against know you are also a judge, and have no issue with it?

Also if there is a different set of criteria for worlds teams does this also apply to things like the summit?


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