All-Star Comparing Scores Across Competitions

[imrichhowboutu]

I think this is a good thing to speak generally about. I have seen people post about this in different threads and don't want to bring up specifics.

When coaches are comparing scores from one event to another on the same score sheet, what are you looking at? Heres a little list of things I think are dos and donts.

Absolutely do not compare your raw scores from one event to another. There are many things that change from judge to judge. Even with the same judge at different events there can be differences.

Compare category scores. Look at difficulty scores for categories and compare them. You shouldnt be looking for the exact same number but instead making sure they are in the same range. As long as you are in the same range, a judge has the discretion of where in the range to put you. If you drop a stunt and miss elements, you may not make it into the same range as you did last time. With tumbling being very numbers based, 2 or 3 athletes not throwing the skill they were supposed to can move you out of a majority situation.

Technique scores. These can vary greatly from panel to panel and event to event. Don't compare your technique from one day to technique from another. Most companies have ranges for this as well but you usually wont see the same exact score from event to event. What you should check is multiple teams from the same panel. Perhaps your minI 2 amd sr 2 were judged by the same panel. You should know which team had the better execution so make sure it is consistent. Also must companies don't allow judges to consider stunts that fall in technique. If it falls you are getting a deduction so the technique score will be based on the remaining stunts.

Creativity and dance scores will probably vary the greatest. A few things affect this and could vary greatly depending on the event. Most companies don't have concrete rubrics for either of these, just directional guidance. This basically leaves it up to the judge to score where they see fit. Again while you cant compare event to event, teams judged by the same panel should be consistent.

So for those who are comparing scores, what do you look for? (which should be every coach... never just take scores and not verify them)

 

[King]

What if you separated out the people who do technique, execution, and performance (they judge live) and later the difficulty people do it by video. Would you find more consistency in difficulty?

 

[gymcatmomx2]

I am not a coach, just a mom but my youngest CPs team got hit with a safety deduction at Cheer America Nationals this weekend. We competed at one other Cheer America comp this season, plus an NCA comp and ACA Nationals but we were never made aware of any safety issues before this weekend. And nothing in the routine was changed.

 

[Emily]

I am not a coach, just a mom but my youngest CPs team got hit with a safety deduction at Cheer America Nationals this weekend. We competed at one other Cheer America comp this season, plus an NCA comp and ACA Nationals but we were never made aware of any safety issues before this weekend. And nothing in the routine was changed.

Safety issues / illegalities don't always get caught. With everything going on in a routine it might get missed (even multiple times). Even though it SHOULD be caught the first time, it might not happen. You should either be glad that it didn't get caught before (even though you probably shouldn't because rules are there for a reason), or that it did get caught before you compete the routine at one of the huge nationals (NCA, Cheersport, UCA) in case you go there.

 

[yojaehs]

I am not a coach, just a mom but my youngest CPs team got hit with a safety deduction at Cheer America Nationals this weekend. We competed at one other Cheer America comp this season, plus an NCA comp and ACA Nationals but we were never made aware of any safety issues before this weekend. And nothing in the routine was changed.

I have debated this before, but at the end of the day if it's illegal it's illegal it doesn't really matter where it is caught. I personally think some action should be taken on EP's that miss legalities not the EP's that caught them. As a coach it is frustrating when you go to events early in the season. Often times they are "test" runs for scores, legalities etc. Having skills "missed" makes me question what else might have been missed.

 

[yojaehs]

I think this is a good thing to speak generally about. I have seen people post about this in different threads and don't want to bring up specifics.

When coaches are comparing scores from one event to another on the same score sheet, what are you looking at? Heres a little list of things I think are dos and donts.

Absolutely do not compare your raw scores from one event to another. There are many things that change from judge to judge. Even with the same judge at different events there can be differences.

Compare category scores. Look at difficulty scores for categories and compare them. You shouldnt be looking for the exact same number but instead making sure they are in the same range. As long as you are in the same range, a judge has the discretion of where in the range to put you. If you drop a stunt and miss elements, you may not make it into the same range as you did last time. With tumbling being very numbers based, 2 or 3 athletes not throwing the skill they were supposed to can move you out of a majority situation.

Technique scores. These can vary greatly from panel to panel and event to event. Don't compare your technique from one day to technique from another. Most companies have ranges for this as well but you usually wont see the same exact score from event to event. What you should check is multiple teams from the same panel. Perhaps your minI 2 amd sr 2 were judged by the same panel. You should know which team had the better execution so make sure it is consistent. Also must companies don't allow judges to consider stunts that fall in technique. If it falls you are getting a deduction so the technique score will be based on the remaining stunts.

Creativity and dance scores will probably vary the greatest. A few things affect this and could vary greatly depending on the event. Most companies don't have concrete rubrics for either of these, just directional guidance. This basically leaves it up to the judge to score where they see fit. Again while you cant compare event to event, teams judged by the same panel should be consistent.

So for those who are comparing scores, what do you look for? (which should be every coach... never just take scores and not verify them)

The only thing that I expect consistent from event to event is range. Regardless of the event or the judge the range should be the same.

 

[King]

I have debated this before, but at the end of the day if it's illegal it's illegal it doesn't really matter where it is caught. I personally think some action should be taken on EP's that miss legalities not the EP's that caught them. As a coach it is frustrating when you go to events early in the season. Often times they are "test" runs for scores, legalities etc. Having skills "missed" makes me question what else might have been missed.

Highly agree with this. There is no penalty for EP's that don't call things.

I got it! $100 fine for each penalty an EP misses on a team. Now Gym X can't complain about Gym Y not getting a penalty to an EP. Instead they just complain to the USASF. That will ensure ALL penalties will get called.

 

[catlady]

I just posted about meeting Susie's dad in another thread on this topic. The dad had a notebook and he had listed all of the teams scores this last competition. In his cp's division he listed all of the deductions "he saw" on every team and he is going to compare them to the results when they come out. My guess is he also charts and graphs his utility bills and counts the squares of toilet paper to insure the packaging is correct. Needless to say, the analytical personalities of our community are always going to struggle with scoring because, it isn't black and white enough. My suggestion is to smile, thank them for their wonderful analysis, and point them to the nearest bar or tax office. Love, A CPA's wife

 

[cheerinfo]

Highly agree with this. There is no penalty for EP's that don't call things.

I got it! $100 fine for each penalty an EP misses on a team. Now Gym X can't complain about Gym Y not getting a penalty to an EP. Instead they just complain to the USASF. That will ensure ALL penalties will get called.

Fining is not going to ensure anything. Safety judges are only human as well. And with all the things going on in a routine, all the nuances of skills, all the grey areas and interpretation of certain rules and clarifications...you cannot possibly expect safety judges to be perfect EVERY weekend. Things get missed. Performances vary and may have something appear legal one weekend, but illegal another (release to prone comes to mind). I'm not saying it's a good thing to miss penalties...but I am saying you can't always see everything, every time in every routine. I think, in general, the bid events have very good safety judges...and things are missed even there. As a matter of fact, last year, a team went through the ENTIRE season doing the SAME element, and they attended ALL the major nationals...and even at Worlds, it was missed by all the safety judges except ONE. So it happens. I don't think fining anyone is going to change the fact that human error is just a fact of life. There, I think I'm finished HAHA!!

 

[King]

Fining is not going to ensure anything. Safety judges are only human as well. And with all the things going on in a routine, all the nuances of skills, all the grey areas and interpretation of certain rules and clarifications...you cannot possibly expect safety judges to be perfect EVERY weekend. Things get missed. Performances vary and may have something appear legal one weekend, but illegal another (release to prone comes to mind). I'm not saying it's a good thing to miss penalties...but I am saying you can't always see everything, every time in every routine. I think, in general, the bid events have very good safety judges...and things are missed even there. As a matter of fact, last year, a team went through the ENTIRE season doing the SAME element, and they attended ALL the major nationals...and even at Worlds, it was missed by all the safety judges except ONE. So it happens. I don't think fining anyone is going to change the fact that human error is just a fact of life. There, I think I'm finished HAHA!!

human error doesnt bother me as much as motivation. i think outside of pride in ones job there is no reason for safety judges to get it right OR for EP's to enforce the calls. do i think fining every penalty is realistic? no. do i think we need to find some way to motivate and have consequences if a penalty is missed? yes. all the teams currently have a penalty if missed.

 

[Mclovin]

Fining is not going to ensure anything. Safety judges are only human as well. And with all the things going on in a routine, all the nuances of skills, all the grey areas and interpretation of certain rules and clarifications...you cannot possibly expect safety judges to be perfect EVERY weekend. Things get missed. Performances vary and may have something appear legal one weekend, but illegal another (release to prone comes to mind). I'm not saying it's a good thing to miss penalties...but I am saying you can't always see everything, every time in every routine. I think, in general, the bid events have very good safety judges...and things are missed even there. As a matter of fact, last year, a team went through the ENTIRE season doing the SAME element, and they attended ALL the major nationals...and even at Worlds, it was missed by all the safety judges except ONE. So it happens. I don't think fining anyone is going to change the fact that human error is just a fact of life. There, I think I'm finished HAHA!!

Or MAYBE there's just TOO many "gray areas" and we need to make things more black and white...

 

[cheerinfo]

You have to also understand that with all these fine points of some of the new rules, a team can perform a skill one day PERFECTLY legally. Then the next day/weekend/month perform it without the same precision, and it's illegal. No one changed the routine or skill, it was just performed differently. I just don't seeing fining humans for having human error a solution. Panel judges make mistakes as well. Placements get affected. This happens at every level in just about every sport. Refs blow calls in the Superbowl. Olympic judges get it wrong...etc. etc.

I think the grey areas have decreased year after year. The thing is, coaches are ALWAYS going to push the envelope and go as far into any grey area as possible. This also makes safety judges' jobs harder. Just trying to give a little perspective from the other side of the situation.

 

[Hungry]

imrichhowboutu

Do you feel judges score harder on technique as the season progresses? Same EP, same score sheet, (two of the same exact judges in fact) two months later and technique scores down by half a point. Both performances comparable in execution.

 

[DaniV]

Even choreographer's are running into this issue and contributing to it. As a gym we had our routines choreographer by staff from an EP that we attend a large comp they run. We both are trying to push the envelope and embrace the grey area but even after talking with their safety judge during choreo, we still ended up with safety violations at their comp because in the moment due to athlete performance or new rule changes or just new insight to the rules it was no longer legal.

It sucks that we went to three comps without getting any warnings but I can agree, if it's illegal, it's illegal and there is no arguing it (unless you can prove that we did have that small addition to technique/grips to make it legal).

 

[imrichhowboutu]

imrichhowboutu

Do you feel judges score harder on technique as the season progresses? Same EP, same score sheet, (two of the same exact judges in fact) two months later and technique scores down by half a point. Both performances comparable in execution.

I don't panel judge too often anymore. I can say from personal experience in coaching and from friends that I have seen tougher execution scores at larger nationals. The thing you have to realize is that when you go to a competition with 1 team in a division, vs a competition with 20 in a division, a lot has changed and that 0.1 is going to make all of the difference.