All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[amy1k]

It's not really logical to think you could grade a kid and put him on a level where he was only qualified to compete for an entire season. I was watching my daughter's j3 team warm up tumbling this week. With the exception of my daughter and a girl who hasn't tumbled since November due to a broken hand, they all have standing tucks. Only a handful had them at team placement and some still struggle with level 3 stunting. My daughter is working fulls and is proficient in level 4 stunting, but obviously doesn't have all the level 4 tumbling. Is her j3 team sandbagging? Or are they a group that has picked up skills since placement? (Incidentally also a fairly small gym with around 100 athletes)

 

[cupieqt]

Well, of course someone has to be in the back, but would you honestly be ok as a parent that your competent level 2 athlete is not getting to use their skills, have a tumbling pass, or fly because the gym chose to bring in level 5 athletes to fill those spots? How many years would you be willing to let that situation go on with your kid nuggeting while a level 5 threw tumbling and flew?


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Not very many. So I wouldn't be at that gym very long.

This is part of my point though. So few gyms actually do this sort of thing. But the hot topic issue keeps getting debated. Ethically, everyone agrees that is wrong. But technically, nothing can or will be done about it because any kind of regulation other than what's already in place would kill some gyms business plans and strategies. And it's all about business. So it's easier to say "beat them at their own game and make sure your teams are stacked deep with talent" than it is to say there can only be X amount of crossovers and they can only cross between this level and that one.


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[Sparkle Mom]

A lot of these posts seem to imply that it's only sandbagging/stacking if there are higher level crossovers on the lower level team. However, in my opinion the issue isn't just crossovers. What about gyms who make a level 3 team with majority of athletes who are working on fulls? Is that ok as long as those athletes don't compete on another team?

I think that is tough because many kids I see have higher level tumbling than stunting or vice versa. For example my CP will have all level 5 tumbling before she probably ever gets fully comfortable stunting level 3 or 4. Certainly a good point but I know kids that are level two and weak at stunting but have a standing tuck and a layout.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Well, of course someone has to be in the back, but would you honestly be ok as a parent that your competent level 2 athlete is not getting to use their skills, have a tumbling pass, or fly because the gym chose to bring in level 5 athletes to fill those spots? How many years would you be willing to let that situation go on with your kid nuggeting while a level 5 threw tumbling and flew?


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True story. A Level 2 team at a gym I once worked at was routinely stacked with athletes from the Level 5 team. Especially for a big competition. The weakest level 2 flyers were taken out of the air and the Level 5 flyers put in their place. Point jumpers and dancers got moved in favor of the Level 5 kids. This went on a few times that year. Near the end of the season one of the Level 2 kids literally snapped. She about got to fighting with one of the Level 5 athletes in practice. The argument could be heard thought the gym. "Y'all always coming in here to rescue us like we suck or something. We dont need you. We do great without you before, we don't need you now. " Of course it got way worse than this with fists about to fly and the athlete was kicked out of the gym.

The strange thing to me is that the coaches and owners were completely oblivious to how the kids on that Level 2 team felt about being moved around and replaced every time a big competition came up. All the owners and coaches wanted to do was win at all costs, which they felt in order to do that they had to do what they did. That But to the athletes that were on the Level 2 team since the beginning of the season, that Level 2 was their team. Their only team. They wanted to own it, good or bad. They wanted to work. They viewed the Level 5's coming in as trespassers, mocking them saying they weren't good enough.
They were willing to accept the results, win or lose. It was the owners and coaches that could not.

 

[quitthedrama]

ETA: I'm playing Devil's advocate bc this has always been a hot topic with lots of arguments on both sides. Ethically, everyone feels the same way. But technically this will always be a hot topic because it can't be regulated without killing Event Producers business plans.


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I fixed this for you
I have exhausted myself on this subject - I have fought it for so long. I do think small gyms competing in the small gym division should have less crossover restrictions, but I have seen gyms from all sizes use crossovers to stack/sandbag rather than use for fill-ins etc therefore making it harder for small gyms to compete against larger gyms. Yes, you can have a good small gym team that beats up on the bigger gyms, but it is the exception not the norm. USASF will never change the rule because they are so tied into a certain mega event producer and millions of dollars in crossover fee revenue would be lost if crossover restrictions were put in place. It is all about the almighty dollar and I just can't be convinced otherwise.

 

[Sparkle Mom]

It's not really logical to think you could grade a kid and put him on a level where he was only qualified to compete for an entire season. I was watching my daughter's j3 team warm up tumbling this week. With the exception of my daughter and a girl who hasn't tumbled since November due to a broken hand, they all have standing tucks. Only a handful had them at team placement and some still struggle with level 3 stunting. My daughter is working fulls and is proficient in level 4 stunting, but obviously doesn't have all the level 4 tumbling. Is her j3 team sandbagging? Or are they a group that has picked up skills since placement? (Incidentally also a fairly small gym with around 100 athletes)

I don't think level 3 kids working on standing tucks or higher is unreasonable but I personally think it is different than putting kids with a double full on a level two team. There are many athletes that progress quickly during the season but if half of j3 kids have a full at tryouts it would probably be perceived differently.

 

[cheer25mom]

True story. A Level 2 team at a gym I once worked at was routinely stacked with athletes from the Level 5 team. Especially for a big competition. The weakest level 2 flyers were taken out of the air and the Level 5 flyers put in their place. Point jumpers and dancers got moved in favor of the Level 5 kids. This went on a few times that year. Near the end of the season one of the Level 2 kids literally snapped. She about got to fighting with one of the Level 5 athletes in practice. The argument could be heard thought the gym. "Y'all always coming in here to rescue us like we suck or something. We dont need you. We do great without you before, we don't need you now. " Of course it got way worse than this with fists about to fly and the athlete was kicked out of the gym.

The strange thing to me is that the coaches and owners were completely oblivious to how the kids on that Level 2 team felt about being moved around and replaced every time a big competition came up. All the owners and coaches wanted to do was win at all costs, which they felt in order to do that they had to do what they did. That But to the athletes that were on the Level 2 team since the beginning of the season, that Level 2 was their team. Their only team. They wanted to own it, good or bad. They wanted to work. They viewed the Level 5's coming in as trespassers, mocking them saying they weren't good enough.
They were willing to accept the results, win or lose. It was the owners and coaches that could not.

Happened to our senior 2 last year. They were a decent team, but weren't winning everything by any means. A bunch of 4s and 5s were added to the team, flyers taken down, point spots lost, tumbling passes taken away, ect in the interest of winning the division. Many of those level 2 kids aren't back this year and one left midseason over it.

My CP has been in that situation with level 3 athletes on a mini 1 and hat is exactly how she felt. Mini 1 wasn't the level 3 athletes team, they acted like that were doing the level 1 kids a favor by showing up, and definitely made them feel like they weren't good enough. I was a situation where it had to be done to field the team, but it still sucked.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Happened to our senior 2 last year. They were a decent team, but weren't winning everything by any means. A bunch of 4s and 5s were added to the team, flyers taken down, point spots lost, tumbling passes taken away, ect in the interest of winning the division. Many of those level 2 kids aren't back this year and one left midseason over it.

My CP has been in that situation with level 3 athletes on a mini 1 and hat is exactly how she felt. Mini 1 wasn't the level 3 athletes team, they acted like that were doing the level 1 kids a favor by showing up, and definitely made them feel like they weren't good enough. I was a situation where it had to be done to field the team, but it still sucked.

I would hope that coaches would read your story and mine and strongly reconsider before doing something like this. A true case of winning the battle and losing the war.

 

[cheer25mom]

It's not really logical to think you could grade a kid and put him on a level where he was only qualified to compete for an entire season. I was watching my daughter's j3 team warm up tumbling this week. With the exception of my daughter and a girl who hasn't tumbled since November due to a broken hand, they all have standing tucks. Only a handful had them at team placement and some still struggle with level 3 stunting. My daughter is working fulls and is proficient in level 4 stunting, but obviously doesn't have all the level 4 tumbling. Is her j3 team sandbagging? Or are they a group that has picked up skills since placement? (Incidentally also a fairly small gym with around 100 athletes)

that is a totally different thing that taking a kid that competes level 5 and placing them on a level 2 team at the beginning of the season. They were appropriately placed at tryouts based on the skills they had then. They didn't max out the level in every area and were not 2-3 levels above their team placement with most or all of their skills. A kid can certainly be on a level 2 team with some level 3 and 4 skills, or even a level 5 skill or 2, but someone who has been competing a solid level 4-5 skill set doesn't belong on level 2 just so that team can win everything.

 

[amy1k]

The situation you all are relating seems like a business issue. I think most parents (customers) would be dissatisfied with a business running in that way.

 

[cheer25mom]

The situation you all are relating seems like a business issue. I think most parents (customers) would be dissatisfied with a business running in that way.

some people( mostly parents of the crossovers) were very happy with it because their kid was getting jackets. They made those parents happy at the expense of athletes they saw as less valuable. A true senior 2 kid will likely never be a worlds athlete, and generating worlds level talent was the focus of our old owners. The new ownership has a new focus.

 

[CAmom66]

Level 5 athletes are much more likely to have near perfect technique at level 2 than a true level 2 athlete, plus they will have experience with higher level stunts, making their level 2 stunts much more solid. What is basic to them is maxed out to a true level 2. It is easy for them, whereas a true level 2 athlete has to work for perfect technique and execution. IMO, THAT is why sandbagging is unfair. Bringing a level 5 down to level 2 is like sitting a high schooler in a 3rd grade classroom, of course they will make 100 on everything.

I just don't think it's fair to the true level 2 kids on that team. They never have a chance at being anywhere other than the back.


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That depends on what you consider, "true level". I don't think BHS with bent arms and frog legs are "true level". Obviously, some gyms are pickier than others about technique, and won't put kids on a team who don't have skills that are ready to earn a perfect score on a score sheet. Those gyms are going to be more successful. I don't consider that sandbagging.

 

[cheer25mom]

That depends on what you consider, "true level". I don't think BHS with bent arms and frog legs are "true level". Obviously, some gyms are pickier than others about technique, and won't put kids on a team who don't have skills that are ready to earn a perfect score on a score sheet. Those gyms are going to be more successful. I don't consider that sandbagging.

I don't consider a BHS that frogs true level either, a solid BHS series plus a specialty pass with good technique is true to level IMO. yes, kids on a level 2 team SHOULD have all level 2 skills with good technique and be working towards level 3. There is definitely some wiggle room skill wise when placing and athlete, and every child has different abilities and strengths, but there are definitely obvious cases where athletes have no business on a team. If you have specialty pass through to double you are definitely not a true level 2, and that is sandbagging.

 

[CAmom66]

That depends on what you consider, "true level". I don't think BHS with bent arms and frog legs are "true level". Obviously, some gyms are pickier than others about technique, and won't put kids on a team who don't have skills that are ready to earn a perfect score on a score sheet. Those gyms are going to be more successful. I don't consider that sandbagging.

The goal of all teams should be to earn a perfection score of 100.00. If that goal is achieved, you can't be beat. Is that "easier" with higher level athletes on a level 2 team? Maybe. But, nobody said winning is easy. I have complete confidence that our gym and coaches have prepared our level 2 athletes to be successful against any level 2 team (whether there are level 5 athletes on that team of not. So Bring it!!)

 

[amy1k]

We actually have a boy on our S2 who started cheer last summer. He picked up tumbling so quickly (as boys often do). Originally he was on our S2 and S4...later he filled a spot on our i5. He was placed appropriately in the summer. He had never done ANY stunting and only tumbled for fun with friends in a rec tumbling class and outside. He's a quick learner, but still has LOTS to learn. I'm not sure all of the tumbling he has, but he had none at all, and I saw him land a standing double recently.

My point...there's always going to be something. I, personally, feel like parents should do business with gyms that employ philosophies that they agree with. Don't worry about what other gyms do. There are always going to be people who take advantage of loopholes or non-rules and there will always be circumstances that we don't understand and we won't have all of the information in order to judge choices that coaches make when forming teams. Level 2 kids CAN earn a spot it the front row over a level 5 kid. They are just as able to perfect technique. *shrug*