All-Star D1 / D2 Debate

[BlueCat]

@BlueCat "I'm not opposed to the scores being absolutely public, but I think that is a tougher sell to the EPs."

I find this the most interesting line in this entire discussion, as I have had similar discussions with a major EP and was told that the gyms requested that scores no longer be made public, and that it had nothing to do with the EPs. I probably should have questioned that statement from the EP harder, but it was around fear of scores being used against gyms and to recruit athletes from lower or less scoring gyms.

I have heard that as well. I know that we have had issues when parents see the the actual breakdown and they question many things in the routines. If it is an issue for us (parents questioning our ability to craft routines that score well), I would imagine it is an issue for nearly everyone. I guess I don't see why knowing the FINAL score is that much different than knowing the score breakdowns. If you have a much lower final score, does it matter whether it is because of jumps or stunts?

This is a broad over-generalization, but there are generally 3 levels of parent "knowledge" about our sport - actual experts (former coaches/athletes, gym owners, etc), those who know a medium amount (parents who visit FB occasionally and/or download the scoresheet explanation from Varsity.com), and those who know very little. Surprisingly, we get the least amount of pushback/complaints/advice from the first group. We get very little from the last group. Our "issues" almost always come from the second group.

It probably causes a little more issues for coaches/gym owners if those scores are made purely public, but I think it is worth the tradeoff. I do understand the argument against that, however. To me, the more private the scoring is, the more you are going to have accusations of favoritism or bias. Usually (not always) I get less angry about results after I see the breakdowns and review the videos.

The biggest misconception is that "raw score" simply represents how difficult your routine is. Parents don't understand why if your "raw score" is lower than someone else, you don't automatically spend the next practice adding more difficulty or more elements to the routine.

 

[cheerspirit]

VarsityTV appears to have FAVORITE gyms and teams. Specifically, gyms that use Varsity for all their uniforms, shoes, etc. To an outsider, the favoritism appears very blatant. Does this have any influence on scores and placements?

 

[cheerios27]

I have heard that as well. I know that we have had issues when parents see the the actual breakdown and they question many things in the routines. If it is an issue for us (parents questioning our ability to craft routines that score well), I would imagine it is an issue for nearly everyone. I guess I don't see why knowing the FINAL score is that much different than knowing the score breakdowns. If you have a much lower final score, does it matter whether it is because of jumps or stunts?

This is a broad over-generalization, but there are generally 3 levels of parent "knowledge" about our sport - actual experts (former coaches/athletes, gym owners, etc), those who know a medium amount (parents who visit FB occasionally and/or download the scoresheet explanation from Varsity.com), and those who know very little. Surprisingly, we get the least amount of pushback/complaints/advice from the first group. We get very little from the last group. Our "issues" almost always come from the second group.

It probably causes a little more issues for coaches/gym owners if those scores are made purely public, but I think it is worth the tradeoff. I do understand the argument against that, however. To me, the more private the scoring is, the more you are going to have accusations of favoritism or bias. Usually (not always) I get less angry about results after I see the breakdowns and review the videos.

The biggest misconception is that "raw score" simply represents how difficult your routine is. Parents don't understand why if your "raw score" is lower than someone else, you don't automatically spend the next practice adding more difficulty or more elements to the routine.

I have thoroughly enjoyed the insight from everyone on this thread. I think the amount of information, points of view and ideas are wonderful. My question about having scores made public is this.. What other sport are scores not made public? I think all coaches/athletes/parents want what we all pour our hearts, souls and money into to be respected as a sport and withholding scores seems to be the complete opposite way of getting to that respected place. As a parent we rely on a twitter account to provide information readily provided by every other sport. While I am 100% grateful for that twitter account, how is that acceptable? I can't imagine hoping an account tweets the score to my son's baseball game knowing the possibility they might not and having to just accept he won or lost but not be provided any details. Why does cheerleading think they should be immune to the usual critiquing of its ways by a fan base, its participants and its paying customers? Why do we allow this? I can not find an argument that is acceptable for hiding rules and scores. If EP's/gym owners/Varsity can't stand behind their product that is the real problem. I run a youth sports league. We have 1200 children participating every year and I have found that transparency is the greatest tool in disarming any claims of bias. I stand by what we do, it is all available to the public. I can't force anyone to read it, or agree, but it is available and most parents appreciate that over any individual gripe they may have over a call or a outcome of a game. This all ties into the need/demand for D1 and D2. If this sport was transparent, I wonder would we be calling for these divisions. There must be a way to balance the subjective with a code of points of skills like gymnastics and ice skating so we would not feel the need to protect the small gyms from the bigger gyms. If there was a defined way everything should look, and you only get a 10 if everything looks exactly like that. How much are gym owners/ EP's and parents willing to hold execution as the most important driver of the sport, I don't know the answer to that. At two day nationals could Day 1 be a compulsory round executing skills in the level you have declared yourself and if you can not reach a certain point total you do not move on to the optional round of day 2, like a short and long program for figure skating. Those two scores would be added and that determines placement. I do think Summit has a huge impact on the discussion and if it is here to stay (which I am sure it is) it makes the conversation on change that much more complicated.

Thanks again for the insight into the issues cheerleading faces. I hope your voices are heard, I truly believe everyone here has the sports best interests at heart.

 

[BlueCat]

There are several differences between all star cheer and other sports. Some of them are positive and some aren't. I can't think of others where the scores are not public and/or the winners aren't revealed until the awards ceremony. I also can't see any other where the company hosting competitions (and making uniforms) has dramatically more influence than the coaches/athletes/families/team owners. (cycling maybe?)

 

[Lablover]

I think comparing ice skating and/or gymnastics scoring to cheerleading is problematic in that it’s a solo or pair sport for the most part. Scoring an individual or pair on skills and execution is certainly much easier than a team.
I would think the scoring for cheer would be more comparable to group dance and synchronized swimming. I have no idea how scoring works for either, but maybe that’s where they need to start?

 

[tumbleyoda]

There are several differences between all star cheer and other sports. Some of them are positive and some aren't. I can't think of others where the scores are not public and/or the winners aren't revealed until the awards ceremony. I also can't see any other where the company hosting competitions (and making uniforms) has dramatically more influence than the coaches/athletes/families/team owners. (cycling maybe?)

One of the things that has always troubled me is how much we just take it for granted or accept that is just the way it is in cheer, but when an outsider comes to the sport especially if they have competed in other competitive sports they look at us like we are crazy for some of those same exact things.

 

[tumbleyoda]

VarsityTV appears to have FAVORITE gyms and teams. Specifically, gyms that use Varsity for all their uniforms, shoes, etc. To an outsider, the favoritism appears very blatant. Does this have any influence on scores and placements?

I must be going soft in my old age, but I get this. Varsity is promoting their products on their network. Of course they want people to see their stuff and buy their stuff. While I can see this as favoritism I see it more as self promotion and a warning to those that do not use those products should know going in they wont be highlighted, that your scores and placements may suffer if you do not promote their products (debate is still ongoing on this matter) and to factor that in to if they choose to attend those events.

 

[cheerios27]

I think comparing ice skating and/or gymnastics scoring to cheerleading is problematic in that it’s a solo or pair sport for the most part. Scoring an individual or pair on skills and execution is certainly much easier than a team.
I would think the scoring for cheer would be more comparable to group dance and synchronized swimming. I have no idea how scoring works for either, but maybe that’s where they need to start?

So I did some researching into synchronized swimming and I am impressed and what I personally would want cheerleading to be. Take a look, it is impressive.

http://www.rfen.es/publicacion/userfiles/FINA SY Manual 2013-2017.pdf

 

[Lisa Seye]

But didn't cheetahs win majors for the gazillionth time. They wear rebel don't they and they don't suffer in scoring. I think that yes varsity features those who wear varsity on their website but I don't think it factors in scoring. Maybe I'm naive?? But I think scoring is fair overall in that those who deserve to win actually do win. Scoring is subjective somewhat and depends on what the judges like and don't like, but hit elements are hit elements. Creativity is where you will see points based on individual judge's opinions, right?
Varsity models also may or may not wear varsity as their gym uniform but it didn't keep them from getting chosen as a varsity model. I know there has been perception in the past that you have to wear varsity to win but does that really hold true ? I hope one day we will see more transparency in scoring because I love to analyze the breakdowns just as a numbers geek lol. I feel the transparency will come one day , baby steps yall. Lol

 

[Keep_Believing]

It seems the majority of Varsity models are at gyms that support Varsity.

Large coed tends to score high due to their insane difficulty. For large coed both Cheetahs and Top Gun really stood out at Majors. They went above and beyond. I think both of those teams wear Rebel.

From what people say the favoritism comes more into play when teams are putting on similar performances with similar difficulty. When this happens it is perceived that the gyms that support Varsity have an advantage.

 

[tumbleyoda]

But didn't cheetahs win majors for the gazillionth time. They wear rebel don't they and they don't suffer in scoring. I think that yes varsity features those who wear varsity on their website but I don't think it factors in scoring. Maybe I'm naive?? But I think scoring is fair overall in that those who deserve to win actually do win. Scoring is subjective somewhat and depends on what the judges like and don't like, but hit elements are hit elements. Creativity is where you will see points based on individual judge's opinions, right?
Varsity models also may or may not wear varsity as their gym uniform but it didn't keep them from getting chosen as a varsity model. I know there has been perception in the past that you have to wear varsity to win but does that really hold true ? I hope one day we will see more transparency in scoring because I love to analyze the breakdowns just as a numbers geek lol. I feel the transparency will come one day , baby steps yall. Lol

I understand your point. However the ONLY thing that will ever eradicate that perception is transparency and that can only come from them. For every one gym that says it is not an issue you can find 3-5 that say it is. Now you or I may not agree with their experience but again that is their experience and their perception.

We have been told baby steps and we need more money and support to make these changes since at least 2004 and I would wager before then. After 12-13 years shouldn't that baby be able to walk by now? Unless it is to their personal benefit to keep everyone thinking that it still must be taking baby steps.

 

[tumbleyoda]

It seems the majority of Varsity models are at gyms that support Varsity.

Large coed tends to score high due to their insane difficulty. For large coed both Cheetahs and Top Gun really stood out at Majors. They went above and beyond. I think both of those teams wear Rebel.

From what people say the favoritism comes more into play when teams are putting on similar performances with similar difficulty. When this happens it is perceived that the gyms that support Varsity have an advantage.

True there is a much different feeling when it comes to teams like Cheetahs, TG, WC, Cea, etc. They are just that good. We are talking about the rest of us...lol.

 

[BlueCat]

It seems the majority of Varsity models are at gyms that support Varsity.

Large coed tends to score high due to their insane difficulty. For large coed both Cheetahs and Top Gun really stood out at Majors. They went above and beyond. I think both of those teams wear Rebel.

From what people say the favoritism comes more into play when teams are putting on similar performances with similar difficulty. When this happens it is perceived that the gyms that support Varsity have an advantage.

Call me naive, but I don't believe Varsity would condone scoring changes based on who wears their uniforms. If that were true and were discovered, I think their bottom line would take a devastating hit. We don't wear their uniforms, but we are in their warmups and have spent millions over the years at their events. A few gyms might switch to their uniforms, but many more would never set foot at a Varsity event again. I know a bunch of the Varsity higher-ups and I just don't see this happening.

I do think that your uniform impacts how much you featured in their ads and social media. I don't love that, but I can't blame them - it's not like we are going to put a ton of different gyms' stuff on our social media.

 

[quitthedrama]

This thread has been great discussion but it seems almost meaningless to me. We have so many smart industry professionals with great ideas on how to move forward towards a true sport but when we have Varsity employees commenting on videos from UCA college nationals on Twitter stating that cheer is not a sport I don't see anything changing unless it is to their financial benefit.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

But didn't cheetahs win majors for the gazillionth time. They wear rebel don't they and they don't suffer in scoring. I think that yes varsity features those who wear varsity on their website but I don't think it factors in scoring. Maybe I'm naive?? But I think scoring is fair overall in that those who deserve to win actually do win. Scoring is subjective somewhat and depends on what the judges like and don't like, but hit elements are hit elements. Creativity is where you will see points based on individual judge's opinions, right?
Varsity models also may or may not wear varsity as their gym uniform but it didn't keep them from getting chosen as a varsity model. I know there has been perception in the past that you have to wear varsity to win but does that really hold true ? I hope one day we will see more transparency in scoring because I love to analyze the breakdowns just as a numbers geek lol. I feel the transparency will come one day , baby steps yall. Lol

Makes no sense because more and more people wear not-Varsity every year anyway. (ex: Most are wearing Rebel now?)