All-Star For The Judges

[KB_Legend]

You're competing against the score sheet not the other teams, you can't lower the other teams scores because of what (imaginary) WCSS did. CEA's stunt is still the middle to high end of the high range according to the scoring grid regardless of what anyone else does. All it means is that WCSS did all that extra work and took all that risk for an extra tenth or two on their stunt score.

 

[King]

You're competing against the score sheet not the other teams, you can't lower the other teams scores because of what (imaginary) WCSS did. CEA's stunt is still the middle to high end of the high range according to the scoring grid regardless of what anyone else does. All it means is that WCSS did all that extra work and took all that risk for an extra tenth or two on their stunt score.

So there is no proper way to reward insanely hard difficulty over just really hard difficulty in cheerleading? Because last year I would say CEA's stunt probably maxed out a lot of places. If WCSS came out of no where and did what I described perfectly there would be no way for them to outscore CEA and all that extra difficulty (if it took away time from other stuff) could possible HURT the stahs.

But what if it was 'known' that WCSS was coming up and what they were doing?

What gets in you range changes slightly every year, but what scores 'high' in our range is determined by what is acceptable as high for that range. You could technically be ahead of your time.

 

[King]

To put another way, you are competing against a scoresheet AND the judges perceptions of the scoresheet.

 

[KB_Legend]

Sure CEA was scoring high in stunts but I'm sure they weren't getting perfect difficulty scores, there is always a higher score to give for the insanely hard stunt. Is it worth it? Absolutely not, but you will get a higher score. The team doing a double up won't be blowing people out of the water in stunts unless the grid changes because the one and a quarter up and a tic tok with a double down HAVE to score high regardless of what anyone else does

 

[King]

Sure CEA was scoring high in stunts but I'm sure they weren't getting perfect difficulty scores, there is always a higher score to give for the insanely hard stunt. Is it worth it? Absolutely not, but you will get a higher score. The team doing a double up won't be blowing people out of the water in stunts unless the grid changes because the one and a quarter up and a tic tok with a double down HAVE to score high regardless of what anyone else does

They don't have to score high. They have to score in range. All scores within range are subjective. That is why what used to score high within range a few years ago will score low within range. All scoring within range is completely subjective, no?

 

[King]

Sure CEA was scoring high in stunts but I'm sure they weren't getting perfect difficulty scores, there is always a higher score to give for the insanely hard stunt. Is it worth it? Absolutely not, but you will get a higher score. The team doing a double up won't be blowing people out of the water in stunts unless the grid changes because the one and a quarter up and a tic tok with a double down HAVE to score high regardless of what anyone else does

Put another way, majority plus 1 two to fulls puts you in range for standing tumbling. Squad two to fulls a couple years ago would score high in range. Now you need squad 2 to fulls, 1 to fulls, standing fulls, two to doubles... blah blah blah.

Once in range everything a judge decides is subjective and relative to what your competition does.

And the funny thing is you completely agreed with me on this when discussing Large Senior and jumps a while ago.

 

[cheerKT]

This has been my question for a while, and in my opinion, one of the flaws in our sport. But you articulated it better than I could have. So thanks =)

 

[King]

This has been my question for a while, and in my opinion, one of the flaws in our sport. But you articulated it better than I could have. So thanks =)

That will be $5 please. Thanks.

 

[King]

So if the perceived high level of ability was shifted (just how what scores high in small senior in jumps is NOT the same as what scores high in large senior in jumps) then it would be possible for a team to outscore others. If you believe that what you are looking at is not close the greatest thing ever, you will score it as such.

So, what does a team have to do to get what they are doing 'known' to the judges (cause really that is all that matters) that it is above and beyond what everyone else is doing (within range of course!).

 

[KB_Legend]

Actually you're not exactly right... Using the varsity score sheet for sake of ease

A straight up stretch double down MUST score at least an 8.0 because it has a level 5 element
A switch up stretch double down would score higher
A full up stretch double would score higher than a switch up
1.25 higher than a full up
1.5 up scores higher than 1.25
1.5 up plus a switch up higher still
1.5 up plus tic tok higher again

So already we are at at least an 8.6 and there are still more difficult combinations, you can't just lower the values of things because of the high end! You can't create a huge gap between the #1 and #2 stunt because then there is no gap between the #6 and #7 stunt. Yes a double up should (and would) score higher than a 1.5 up but a full up still has to score higher than a straight up. Unless the grid changes your theory can't work

 

[socratesofcheer]

It's really quite simple. The judges reward in other areas of the scoresheet. A perfect example is TG large coed a few years back. They won grand champions at NCA a couple years in a row. Their routine was light years ahead tumbling wise, however, the other SKILL elements were not. The judges rewarded them throughout the scoresheet which gave them the highest score.

At this point I would like to turn it over to Blue Cat who will explain the reason every team's scores should be released.

 

[King]

Actually you're not exactly right... Using the varsity score sheet for sake of ease

A straight up stretch double down MUST score at least an 8.0 because it has a level 5 element
A switch up stretch double down would score higher
A full up stretch double would score higher than a switch up
1.25 higher than a full up
1.5 up scores higher than 1.25
1.5 up plus a switch up higher still
1.5 up plus tic tok higher again

So already we are at at least an 8.6 and there are still more difficult combinations, you can't just lower the values of things because of the high end! You can't create a huge gap between the #1 and #2 stunt because then there is no gap between the #6 and #7 stunt. Yes a double up should (and would) score higher than a 1.5 up but a full up still has to score higher than a straight up. Unless the grid changes your theory can't work

According to the varsity scoresheet everything you just described has no preset point value. The grid does not assign values to the skills, just relations. You said A is worth more than B, but not by how much or how much they would each score. How much they score is all in relation to your competitors and what the judge perceives as hard (and the allowed amount of iterations)

If in that point judges are only allowed to score in solid point increments that means each judge has just 10 iterations to properly judge everything. Or, said another way there are only 10 stunt sequences possible to score. The 11th stunt sequence will either match something that is harder than it really is.

You ARE right in application, just not in theory of why. It is more successful to choose a stunt sequence that is inline and only slightly more difficult than everyone else's. But if some how you were able to shift the general knowledge of what everyone perceives as the top abilities in a range then you would see a large score differential. And that is the point of the discussion.

If you could somehow shift and educate the people that THIS new thing (whether it be squad standing doubles or the SS stunt sequence described) is what really should be the top score you would see more stunts pushed down to the lower range.

 

[King]

It's really quite simple. The judges reward in other areas of the scoresheet. A perfect example is TG large coed a few years back. They won grand champions at NCA a couple years in a row. Their routine was light years ahead tumbling wise, however, the other SKILL elements were not. The judges rewarded them throughout the scoresheet which gave them the highest score.

At this point I would like to turn it over to Blue Cat who will explain the reason every team's scores should be released.

This is also one of the reasons he suggested allowing judges to score whatever they like to whatever decimal places they want (I still think 100 iterations is more than enough and set limits are emancipating rather than restricting).

If I was a judge I would not want a scoresheets to be released until skills have set difficulty values. My judging expertise comes in your execution of the skill, not valuing how difficult it is when how difficult it is is more subjective than execution.

 

[King]

Actually you're not exactly right... Using the varsity score sheet for sake of ease

A straight up stretch double down MUST score at least an 8.0 because it has a level 5 element
A switch up stretch double down would score higher
A full up stretch double would score higher than a switch up
1.25 higher than a full up
1.5 up scores higher than 1.25
1.5 up plus a switch up higher still
1.5 up plus tic tok higher again

So already we are at at least an 8.6 and there are still more difficult combinations, you can't just lower the values of things because of the high end! You can't create a huge gap between the #1 and #2 stunt because then there is no gap between the #6 and #7 stunt. Yes a double up should (and would) score higher than a 1.5 up but a full up still has to score higher than a straight up. Unless the grid changes your theory can't work

as to throw another wrench in your description, does a fullup immediate stretch score higher than a tick tock?

how about a fullup immediate lib? or fullup immediate grab for scorp? or switchup opposite stretch? at this point depending on the gym you ask youll probably get different answers for each.

again we are not discussing pragmatics (which is what you do to win because this is how it is) but theory. the theory is if everyone suddenly though tick tocks were THE HARDEST THING EVER and fullups, 1.5 ups or even double ups can be done by mini teams than suddenly tick tocks would get that high difficulty score.

 

[cheercoachz]

OK...and my head just exploded. Thanks a lot, King.