All-Star How Small Is A Typical D2 Gym Summit Bid Winner??

[BlueCat]

I think there should be more than 2 divisions. I don't think a gym with 126 kids should be competing against a gym with 400, or that a gym of 30 should be competing against a gym of 120. I think we should go to a division system similar to what high school sports do to level the playing field. A school of 200 kids has no businesses competing against school of 2000. They simply don't have the resources to stand a chance. The same is true about an all star gym of 30 kids trying to hold its own against the likes of Rays, CA, Cali, ect. Sure a small gym might get lucky one year with one special team that is the perfect mix of kids and do well, but by and large they just don't have the resources to compete on that level. They shouldn't be forced to.

I understand all of that. The analogy is a little different because school sports don't break football, basketball, etc into ability levels like cheer. (Varsity, JV, etc are all still doing the same skills) That evens things out quite a bit, especially at levels 1-4.

There is pressure to create more divisions. Keep splitting divisions until teams are just competing against other teams that are extremely similar to them.

There is also pressure to have fewer divisions so teams actually have someone to compete against. Far too many competitions are turning into glorified recitals where there are 1-2 teams in 50+ different divisions.

Balancing those two opposing forces is a challenge.

 

[ChicagoCheerDad]

What we all need to understand is D2 is a business, specifically one started and sponsored by American Cheer Power, which is a Varsity Brand. They started the National Small Program Association with a goal of having a D2(small program division and championship) NSPA National Small Program Association .

 

[cheer25mom]

I understand all of that. The analogy is a little different because school sports don't break football, basketball, etc into ability levels like cheer. (Varsity, JV, etc are all still doing the same skills) That evens things out quite a bit, especially at levels 1-4.

There is pressure to create more divisions. Keep splitting divisions until teams are just competing against other teams that are extremely similar to them.

There is also pressure to have fewer divisions so teams actually have someone to compete against. Far too many competitions are turning into glorified recitals where there are 1-2 teams in 50+ different divisions.

Balancing those two opposing forces is a challenge.

We have freshman, usually multiple JV teams, and varsity teams for every sport. There is a leveling system there with the best players on varsity. I do get what you are saying. There definitely has to be a balance. I guess what I am saying is that balance according to size of the gym rather than size of the team might be a better way. I think it would encourage small gyms to field smaller, more level appropriate teams if they were only competing against gyms there size who are also fielding smaller teams. essentially, the size issue would take care of itself if only gyms of similar size were competing against each other.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Before D1 and D2 was ever a thing, the very concept was talked about across many social media platforms for many years by many different people. If my memory serves me right it was even before the NPSA. The central issues were because there was an unwillingness to regulate crossovers from the EP or USASF side (more money for them) which gave tremendous advantage to larger gyms that could crossover numerous higher level athletes to lower level teams, often making it impossible to compete apples to apples. This then of course gave the larger gym more credibility in the local community for having better teams at all levels when in reality their size allowed them to stack all levels to their distinct advantage. Many Level 2 were made up of numerous level 4 and 5 athletes (this was before restricted 5 was a thing) and not for training purposes but for the wins.

Real or imagined unfair or favored treatments of larger gyms in scheduling warm ups, meeting rooms, and competition times. Extra time given on warm up mats, meeting spaces to practices extra while smaller gym were told nothing was available for them even when there were rooms and being told they couldn't combine with another smaller gym (when their size was stated as reasons why they couldn't have a space) Adjustments for crossovers to have time to make it back to warm ups and rest while small gyms were told they had no options.

BOD (benefit of doubt) points that always gave an upper edge to larger well known programs regardless to if they hit or not the day of competition. Times when if they didn't hit it was overlooked as it was on off day, or it will be right by Worlds so they received bids over smaller programs that hit and had difficulty but they were lesser known and didn't receive the same benefit of the doubt. Bids were awarded not by scores or declaration but by who would represent the EP best. So your choice is well known mega gym and local yokel who nobody knows? This was told to us several times by EP's directly back before the behemoth began to grow and buy every Ep that was a potential threat to do their own thing.

These were just a few of the reasons that when these issues were not addressed many pushed for a D1 and D2 type arrangement. There were many others from different people around the country. This was also before all the chips started falling and everything began to be bought by one company.

In it's original form and debate (back in Prox and Yahoo message board days) it had nothing to do with leaving any company but it had everything to do with being treated fairly at competitions. Many programs felt they were just being told to give their money and come but you had no chance to win on the floor, even if you hit perfectly. So that is when the complaints were raised so why come if you know from the beginning you have no chance at all? When gyms as businesses started to protect themselves and find competitions that aligned more with their beliefs (not just to win as it is always put out there) that is when you clearly see the buying of EP's push happen. It may of been coincidental timing, but IMO I don't think so.

I agree that D2 was a business decision to keep the smaller gyms around feeding the Worlds and now Summit machine and not to form their own thing. But it was not implemented in a way that protected the ideals that were espoused by many. It was implemented as a stop gap with many loopholes that are still being exploited. Perhaps it will be fixed. Perhaps not. But years and years and years of give us time makes you wonder if it will ever all truly be fixed in a way that is fair to all. At the end of a day businesses do what they need to do to protect their interest. Gyms must do the same thing. And they must be better at educating their parents as to why they make the choices they do, regardless to which path they take.

 

[BlueCat]

We have freshman, usually multiple JV teams, and varsity teams for every sport. There is a leveling system there with the best players on varsity. I do get what you are saying. There definitely has to be a balance. I guess what I am saying is that balance according to size of the gym rather than size of the team might be a better way. I think it would encourage small gyms to field smaller, more level appropriate teams if they were only competing against gyms there size who are also fielding smaller teams. essentially, the size issue would take care of itself if only gyms of similar size were competing against each other.

I meant the skill restrictions have a tendency to level things out. (L3 can't do layouts, etc.). That type of restriction doesn't exist in HS football, regardless of JV, Freshman, etc. It isn't perfect, but it somewhat levels the playing field.

I don't have the answer, but continually splitting our divisions further and further and awarding more and more 1st place trophies only works so far before the negatives outweigh the positives.

 

[tumbleyoda]

I meant the skill restrictions have a tendency to level things out. (L3 can't do layouts, etc.). That type of restriction doesn't exist in HS football, regardless of JV, Freshman, etc. It isn't perfect, but it somewhat levels the playing field.

I don't have the answer, but continually splitting our divisions further and further and awarding more and more 1st place trophies only works so far before the negatives outweigh the positives.

I agree. Independent judging body, consistency in deductions regardless of event (especially if they are the under the same EP brand) owning up to mistakes quickly and publicly, transparency in bid awarding process (gotten better but still has a way to go)enforcing established rules across the board without hint of favoritism, program status, etc, would all do way more to grow the industry than splitting divisions to infinity and beyond.

 

[purplecheer]

I understand all of that. The analogy is a little different because school sports don't break football, basketball, etc into ability levels like cheer. (Varsity, JV, etc are all still doing the same skills) That evens things out quite a bit, especially at levels 1-4.

There is pressure to create more divisions. Keep splitting divisions until teams are just competing against other teams that are extremely similar to them.

There is also pressure to have fewer divisions so teams actually have someone to compete against. Far too many competitions are turning into glorified recitals where there are 1-2 teams in 50+ different divisions.

Balancing those two opposing forces is a challenge.

IMHO, there should be D1 and D2 for all events bar UCA, NCA and Cheersport (and any other large comps I don't know of.) For these you split into D1-D4 PROVIDING they still have the numbers in each division. (3/5 teams?) If there isn't numbers, then don't split.