All-Star National Championships Are Won At Tryouts

[THEJOEL]

I think a team should be built from day one with kids who have the level appropriate skills AT TRYOUTS. Not what the coaches think they will have by the first competition.
Year one I saw my CP's team get dropped from a youth 2 to a youth 1 two weeks before the first competiton because the team was built on what they hoped they would have not on what they did have. They did very well after they were dropped down and frankly that's where they should have been from day 1. Did they make the right call by dropping them? IMHO yes they competed all season without injury and they learned a lot that season. Was it sandbagging? Well that's debatable.
What a lot of people forget is how truly dangerous this sport is. When you put an athlete, flyer or base, who is ALMOST there but not quite you are putting the health and well being of every athlete in that stunt group at risk. Especially on levels 3 and above. Yes accidents happen but safety should be consideration #1 not winning. If you have a flyer who isn't confident in that level and has improper technique she puts her bases at risk for serious injury. If the base isn't confident to catch and grip a stunt at the appropriate level than the flyer is at serious risk.don't even get me started on the amount of personal risk an athlete puts themselves in when they throw tumbling with improper technique.

 

[catlady]

What is considered average in a level nowadays just 4 years ago would have been considered sandbagging. I think people choose teams based on what they feel is acceptable socially.

There is also the general feeling if a gym took their level 4 athletes down to level 3 (or even 2) then they would definitely win. What if you need to stack your team just to compete. What if MULTIPLE gyms in a division are stacking (to the point some might say it is sandbagging). Isn't it just how things are done now?

I guess I disagree with the general population that feels that way. The rules state that level X is able to throw A, B, and C skills. Why would I think a coach that feels it is necessary to require all skills to be on that level is stacking or sandbagging? Yes, I will admit if you have a team of 75% bhs, 50% running bhs, 25% fwo, and 50% specialty passes and are going up against a team that has crossed over half of their level 5 athletes to their level 2, then those level 5 athletes are going to make a difference. HOWEVER, if you have put together a level 2 team that has and is proficient at all of their level 2 skills then those level 5 athletes pose a minimal threat. The irony, this argument basically states you must compete a mediocre team to be fair to all competing.

 

[King]

I guess I disagree with the general population that feels that way. The rules state that level X is able to throw A, B, and C skills. Why would I think a coach that feels it is necessary to require all skills to be on that level is stacking or sandbagging? Yes, I will admit if you have a team of 75% bhs, 50% running bhs, 25% fwo, and 50% specialty passes and are going up against a team that has crossed over half of their level 5 athletes to their level 2, then those level 5 athletes are going to make a difference. HOWEVER, if you have put together a level 2 team that has and is proficient at all of their level 2 skills then those level 5 athletes pose a minimal threat. The irony, this argument basically states you must compete a mediocre team to be fair to all competing.

I don't consider it sandbagging, I consider it smart. When looking at a team and a level it doesn't matter what 'extra' skills the athletes as individuals have. It matters if you have enough of that level skill to be competitive (to me competitive means you have a chance to win). This all goes back to my my original statement: national championships are won at tryouts. I think how you choose the team dictates how good a year (the journey and the destination) they are going to have.

 

[oncecoolcoachnowmom]

My other issue with placing kids with less than 80% of skills is that you NEVER know how they're going to progress over summer. There are a lot of factors that play into that.

Ex: A kid is a solid Level 1. But just started throwing a standing BHS last week and it's not solid. If you are considering making her a Level 2 thinking "she'll catch up!" you have to look at:

1. How many skills that kid is missing. A level is more than just tumbling. Can she stunt at that level or is she just now solid with thigh stands? There is also more than JUST the BHS within the L2 skill set.

2. Her natural rate of progress. If it took her ALL LAST SEASON to get a BWO, you cannot expect running and standing BHS in one summer.

3. Is she one who loves to work on skills? The kid who needs to get to 80% of level skills from having a shaky BHS is not going to get to 80% by JUST coming to practice. The kid who gains skills is the one who is going to be committed to privates, classes, etc. Not every child or family is ready for that level of work over the summer in addition to practicing.

4. Is this healthy? Is it just plain TOO MANY SKILLS for a kid to need to get in 3 months?

5. What's the contingency plan if she doesn't "catch up?" I know people think I'm the Wicked Witch but I DO consider "How bad is it going to hurt Suzy if I tell her she's L2, she fails to gain the skills, then she has to get moved back down to L1 at the end of summer?" Probably a lot.

 

[mollymags]

This season the small program I coach at took the "what do you have" instead of "what will you get" approach with building our teams. We expected it to ruffle a lot of feathers, which can be scary for a program with 75 kids. A lot of kids and parents were upset after tryouts. No one was placed on a team below their skill level at all, but many kids thought that working skills or barely scraping by without a spot would get them moved up, and it didn't. Many families threatened to leave right after results were sent out. It was nerve racking but our director stuck to her guns about placements and in the end only 2 kids left because of it. I hear so many small programs say that they are not able to build teams like this because they can't afford to have people walk out- we felt that way but bit the bullet and went for it and we are thrilled with the result. We have set our teams up for success, and have set a precedent for how teams are put together in the future. I think that the chance that a greatly successful season will draw more customers to us in the future was worth the 2 we lost.

It's a very different mindset from what existed when I aged out 6 years ago. Everyone in the top of every division is in the high range for difficulty now. Execution, creativity, and performance skills are what set teams apart. It used to be, "cheerleading values progression over perfection, gymnastics does the opposite." We as an industry are getting into the perfection before progression mindset and I absolutely love it. When you have a team that has the skills they need, you are able to focus on all the other pieces you need to have a winning team. Lower levels are more impressive to watch than ever, AND it's significantly safer for all of the kiddos.


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[SarahS]

I'm not looking forward to next season. We pushed our kids back to Level 1 last year at my insistence. They had been level 2 the previous year because JamBrands doesn't actually have a junior or senior rec level 1 division (level 2 is the lowest division for rec juniors and seniors). The previous year, they had some kids that pushed them into the junior division, so they had to be level 2, even though they had a total of ZERO BHS. Needless to say, they didn't have a very successful season. This year, we were very, very successful as a youth level 1 (the older kids moved on to do other things), even though some parents were very, very upset at the beginning of the year that their kids were being forced to do a lower level than the previous year. I'm sorry, but your kid can barely do a cartwheel... We're not getting slaughtered for absolutely no reason. Jam's scoresheet was vicious when it came to having level-appropriate tumbling (especially standing).

This next year, we will have a couple of kids that push us to the junior age division again. I have a few kids who are close to BHS (the few who got it this year moved due to parents receiving orders to a different base). We are looking at struggling again. I'm hoping I can get approval to have 2 teams: one junior 2 with just the few older kids plus the kids with BHS, and then another amazing youth 1. I will push the kids, as always, to get level-appropriate skills. It just sucks that I am in a position that I HAVE to form a team without level-appropriate skills.

Related: if anyone has a contact at Jam or Varsity that would be willing to listen to a nobody rec coach like me as to why not having level 1 available for rec juniors or seniors is a bad move, safety-wise, progression-wise, expansion-of-the-sport-wise, please let me know.

Also related: I think this may be why a lot of rec kids have scary BHS - much like all star cheer before level 1 existed, these kids are being pushed to learn the skill without proper progression. (To clarify, I don't care - I'm not teaching kids BHS without proper prerequisite skills. If we lose, so be it. I'm clearly on the side of progression and safety here.)

 

[Emily]

I'm not looking forward to next season. We pushed our kids back to Level 1 last year at my insistence. They had been level 2 the previous year because JamBrands doesn't actually have a junior or senior rec level 1 division (level 2 is the lowest division for rec juniors and seniors). The previous year, they had some kids that pushed them into the junior division, so they had to be level 2, even though they had a total of ZERO BHS. Needless to say, they didn't have a very successful season. This year, we were very, very successful as a youth level 1 (the older kids moved on to do other things), even though some parents were very, very upset at the beginning of the year that their kids were being forced to do a lower level than the previous year. I'm sorry, but your kid can barely do a cartwheel... We're not getting slaughtered for absolutely no reason. Jam's scoresheet was vicious when it came to having level-appropriate tumbling (especially standing).

This next year, we will have a couple of kids that push us to the junior age division again. I have a few kids who are close to BHS (the few who got it this year moved due to parents receiving orders to a different base). We are looking at struggling again. I'm hoping I can get approval to have 2 teams: one junior 2 with just the few older kids plus the kids with BHS, and then another amazing youth 1. I will push the kids, as always, to get level-appropriate skills. It just sucks that I am in a position that I HAVE to form a team without level-appropriate skills.

Related: if anyone has a contact at Jam or Varsity that would be willing to listen to a nobody rec coach like me as to why not having level 1 available for rec juniors or seniors is a bad move, safety-wise, progression-wise, expansion-of-the-sport-wise, please let me know.

Also related: I think this may be why a lot of rec kids have scary BHS - much like all star cheer before level 1 existed, these kids are being pushed to learn the skill without proper progression. (To clarify, I don't care - I'm not teaching kids BHS without proper prerequisite skills. If we lose, so be it. I'm clearly on the side of progression and safety here.)

Maybe @ASCheerMan can help with the bolded part.

 

[SarahS]

Maybe @ASCheerMan can help with the bolded part.

Does NCA even have rec divisions? I'm not sure I've ever seen an NCA comp with rec - just all star and school. I could definitely be wrong, though.

 

[Emily]

Does NCA even have rec divisions? I'm not sure I've ever seen an NCA comp with rec - just all star and school. I could definitely be wrong, though.

He definitely has contacts to people from Varsity though

 

[cheermommaRN]

@ASCheerMan actually has a special NCA Prep Nationals for rec/prep level a couple weeks after NCA with all the lights/music ect you get at the big game. A coworkers cp competed there and she loved every minute of it.
The smaller NCA local comps also offer prep divisions.

 

[cupieqt]

Does NCA even have rec divisions? I'm not sure I've ever seen an NCA comp with rec - just all star and school. I could definitely be wrong, though.

NCA will be eliminating rec in favor of prep if I understand it correctly.


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[cheermommaRN]

Stacked: More than 75% of the kids on your level 2 team have solid level 3 skills and threw them at tryouts.
Sandbag: Your senior level 4 has competed all season (and done well) in their division and drops to level 2 at NCA.
Trainwreck: Your level 3 team has 4 kids out of 20 throwing a running tuck at tryouts, no specialty passes and everyone else is level 2.

There is a happy medium in there somewhere. The trainwreck team equals injuries but I don't agree that just because a team isn't' stacked automatically means they are more prone to injury. If you have an effective coaching staff that knows their athletes limits you can push your team to accomplish great things and save their knees.
I think part of this is our society's trend toward "the win is everything". Its okay to come in 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) a few times in your sports career. Like I said before and Mama said sometimes it's those teams that lose (and win) together that result in the best memories for your child.

 

[KDCheerMom]

@mollymags well said...congrats on a great season.

 

[mamabear]

NCA will be eliminating rec in favor of prep if I understand it correctly.

Off topic--Do you know why? I would love to read more about the reasons that they are choosing to do this? Some rec teams (especially ones that continue to compete after an AYC or Pop Warner season) are very different creatures than what Prep is. And I am not sure how they will fit in now. Does NCA want to loose that market completely?

 

[King]

Stacked: More than 75% of the kids on your level 2 team have solid level 3 skills and threw them at tryouts.
Sandbag: Your senior level 4 has competed all season (and done well) in their division and drops to level 2 at NCA.
Trainwreck: Your level 3 team has 4 kids out of 20 throwing a running tuck at tryouts, no specialty passes and everyone else is level 2.

There is a happy medium in there somewhere. The trainwreck team equals injuries but I don't agree that just because a team isn't' stacked automatically means they are more prone to injury. If you have an effective coaching staff that knows their athletes limits you can push your team to accomplish great things and save their knees.
I think part of this is our society's trend toward "the win is everything". Its okay to come in 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) a few times in your sports career. Like I said before and Mama said sometimes it's those teams that lose (and win) together that result in the best memories for your child.

Having a good environment and team atmosphere is great and honestly worth more than a win (can speak from having won and lost multiple times). But when all athletes are not at a minimum level needed to compete kids can be AWFUL to each other. You can never police what kids say to one another (can't stop whispers) so your goal as a coach is to make sure you never create a situation that would put a kid on a team where they would struggle. If you have a full small team of 20 and 1 kid doesnt have the skill yet even if that kid is possibly the greatest human being alive the other 19 females will socially abuse that girl. I have seen it MANY times.

Which also goes into coaching females in general. Boys can hate each other and still bust their butts to win. Females have to like each other to win. They'd rather drop that B they don't like than win. So anytime you create disparity on a team where someone (or half of them) don't have the skills the other half will not like them because they are holding the team back.