All-Star National Championships Are Won At Tryouts

[cheermommaRN]

Personally in the ten years (between two kids) I've been a cheer parent I have never experienced a team like that. My cp's first year at level 2 she was the weakest link and her team actually got mad that she was made an alternate for NCA.
And if I did see a team behaving that way I would side eye the coaching. If a stunt group is dropping a girl because they "don't like her" I would hope that the gym would find themselves short a couple bases.
The two girls on our team that are playing catch up get nothing but love from their teammates and coach. Maybe that's just the little bit of CA in us.
In regards to families leaving...Sparks sandbagged junior 2 at NCA in 2012 and lost...they closed down the next year. So people will always stay if they are winning but if you set up the parents with "but they'll get lots of jackets!" and it doesn't work out (because everyone stacks) you risk just as much as having a team that lost all season.


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[12stepCheermom]

This.

If I could tell gym owners/other coaches one thing, it's that TWO doubles do not a Level 5 team make!

Quoting this because of @cheercurl's comment you quoted.

This phenomena is EXACTLY what happened to our former gym the last two years of their 4 year existence. It was the death stroke for year four. Trying to build a Lv5 that just wasn't there (and then not adjusting all other teams when that team fell apart) did exactly this. It stole the level appropriate talent for every team below it to the next level and as a result NO TEAM was as competitive as it needed/should've been. Approximately half of every team should've been a level down and those teams would've slayed.

And the gym (in my opinion) wouldn't have folded. But it's literally the phenomena that ran them out of business.


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[dawgshow]

And if I did see a team behaving that way I would side eye the coaching. If a stunt group is dropping a girl because they "don't like her" I would hope that the gym would find themselves short a couple bases.


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This is exactly what I've seen happen in that situation.



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[KDCheerMom]

Sad that girls are like this, but "in general" is a true statement.

sometimes it is very subtle. It may go on for a while before it escalates to where adults and coaches notice. Our last gym finally removed a girl when there was talk of dropping a flyer..but it obviously had started long before that and coaches were not aware. And I also agree there are many reasons why it can happen - not just lack of level tumbling.

 

[MZ3]

Having a good environment and team atmosphere is great and honestly worth more than a win (can speak from having won and lost multiple times). But when all athletes are not at a minimum level needed to compete kids can be AWFUL to each other. You can never police what kids say to one another (can't stop whispers) so your goal as a coach is to make sure you never create a situation that would put a kid on a team where they would struggle. If you have a full small team of 20 and 1 kid doesnt have the skill yet even if that kid is possibly the greatest human being alive the other 19 females will socially abuse that girl. I have seen it MANY times.

Which also goes into coaching females in general. Boys can hate each other and still bust their butts to win. Females have to like each other to win. They'd rather drop that B they don't like than win. So anytime you create disparity on a team where someone (or half of them) don't have the skills the other half will not like them because they are holding the team back.

This is SO true. Watched it happen all last season.


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[King]

sometimes it is very subtle. It may go on for a while before it escalates to where adults and coaches notice. Our last gym finally removed a girl when there was talk of dropping a flyer..but it obviously had started long before that and coaches were not aware. And I also agree there are many reasons why it can happen - not just lack of level tumbling.

Having been a coach and recently on the floor the amount of stuff a coach can hear is only around 10% of what is said. Every group has comments to each other about the stunt, their boyfriends, their parents, school, life, coach, anything! Some of it can be venting, some of it negative, some of it positive encouragement. A coach can only do so much to control a situation. It is very key that you don't setup a situation that requires a lot of policing because it just won't be effective.

And I have also removed someone from my team two weeks before worlds because of how negatively their attitude affected the team. I have also had to remove someone who was diagnosed with cancer and their mom just died because their ability level wasn't where the team signed up for her to be. (side not one of the hardest calls I have ever had to make in my life but she called me three months after it happened thanking me because she realized everything I said was right and was invited to her wedding a month ago).

 

[King]

Sad that girls are like this, but "in general" is a true statement.

Females in general are more process oriented and males more goal oriented. Males you can coach them past hating each other for the win. Females you have to get them to like each other to enjoy the process to produce a win.

 

[CheerBank]

Thanks for posing this question. I too have wondered the same thing when sandbagging is discussed. BTW - I go with @cheermomma definition. Are there just a few examples that keep getting referenced over and over again making it seem like it is a bigger problem? I posed the same question on the summit thread - are really all of these worlds level athletes coming in and competing level 2?

Stacked: More than 75% of the kids on your level 2 team have solid level 3 skills and threw them at tryouts.
Sandbag: Your senior level 4 has competed all season (and done well) in their division and drops to level 2 at NCA.

I do think the industry/scoresheets are pushing to mastery at a level to be competitive. I think @mollymags put it very well and the question is are more gyms shifting their business model in order to put competitive teams on the floor. From all of the comments here - it seems most parents are comfortable with most, if not all, athletes having solid competency at a level from the beginning at tryouts. At the end of the day - if all gyms move to this model - wins are no longer guaranteed as the competition will ratchet up as well and the teams/routines will be better. I have only been around two seasons - but in our area - I think the difficulty has gone way higher this season than what I saw even the previous year. JMO

Whether or not big gyms like Rays (or smaller ones too) are choosing to stack their teams to be as competitive as possible from the start gun going off at tryouts is a different issue from what has been happening at the Summit where gyms have the ability to send almost a completely different team from the one that earned the bid and sandbag using their higher level athletes.

If I knew that a youth 2 team for example consisted primarily of 80-90% level 3 or higher athletes, I would look at that team that was one that should have won all season long. Kudos to them but not impressed.


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[cheercurl]

Quoting this because of @cheercurl's comment you quoted.

This phenomena is EXACTLY what happened to our former gym the last two years of their 4 year existence. It was the death stroke for year four. Trying to build a Lv5 that just wasn't there (and then not adjusting all other teams when that team fell apart) did exactly this. It stole the level appropriate talent for every team below it to the next level and as a result NO TEAM was as competitive as it needed/should've been. Approximately half of every team should've been a level down and those teams would've slayed.

And the gym (in my opinion) wouldn't have folded. But it's literally the phenomena that ran them out of business.


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Thank you for quoting me @12stepCheermom. A gym I love dearly is in danger of this...I hope they see the light.

 

[King]

Whether or not big gyms like Rays (or smaller ones too) are choosing to stack their teams to be as competitive as possible from the start gun going off at tryouts is a different issue from what has been happening at the Summit where gyms have the ability to send almost a completely different team from the one that earned the bid and sandbag using their higher level athletes.

If I knew that a youth 2 team for example consisted primarily of 80-90% level 3 or higher athletes, I would look at that team that was one that should have won all season long. Kudos to them but not impressed.


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It is going to require similar roster rules that Worlds has for Summit so you dont have teams dropping down or taking ringers just for one comp.

I do think a system that requires all teams having to do a 1 day or something to qualify for nationals should be brought back.

 

[Keep_Believing]

It is going to require similar roster rules that Worlds has for Summit so you dont have teams dropping down or taking ringers just for one comp.

I do think a system that requires all teams having to do a 1 day or something to qualify for nationals should be brought back.

I love the idea of summit having limits. It is a very expensive comp. For that reason it would be nice to have them allow 2 sub. per a team. We our from a small gym and took all 4 of our teams to summit. We did have a couple who decided not to do it because of cost. If the comp. allowed zero sub. their team wouldn't have been able to compete.

 

[ASCheerMan]

Maybe @ASCheerMan can help with the bolded part.

@SarahS,
@cupieqt, @Emily

Rec divisions aren't governed by USASF. Rec divisions are governed by the individual event producer. So, if you have issue over whether or not a specific competition offers L1 vs. L2 or Junior vs. Senior, then I would reach out to that event producer.

As far as NCA eliminating the Rec divisions--we did this a couple of years ago because participation (at our events) was so minimal). We have started offering an All-Star Prep Nationals. All-Star Prep and Rec are not the same thing, but there's always been a fuzzy distinction between the two.

All that said, the Varsity brands are working towards a consistent definition that each brand who DOES offer Rec can use when qualifying a team as REC vs. All Star Prep. But which divisions are offered will still be at the discretion of that brand.

 

[cupieqt]

@SarahS,
@cupieqt, @Emily

Rec divisions aren't governed by USASF. Rec divisions are governed by the individual event producer. So, if you have issue over whether or not a specific competition offers L1 vs. L2 or Junior vs. Senior, then I would reach out to that event producer.

As far as NCA eliminating the Rec divisions--we did this a couple of years ago because participation (at our events) was so minimal). We have started offering an All-Star Prep Nationals. All-Star Prep and Rec are not the same thing, but there's always been a fuzzy distinction between the two.

All that said, the Varsity brands are working towards a consistent definition that each brand who DOES offer Rec can use when qualifying a team as REC vs. All Star Prep. But which divisions are offered will still be at the discretion of that brand.

Thank you for the info. I'm anxious to see the rec division be more clearly defined. The all star teams abusing this division is getting out of hand.

And I'm all for the prep division. 9 out of 13 of my prep kids made the switch to full year this year and the other 4 are continuing with prep for financial reasons. I see it doing exactly what it was created to do.


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[mamabear]

Thanks @ASCheerMan for clarifying it even more.

 

[BlueCat]

From a business perspective:

Gym owners or coaches have you ever had an exodus of people because last years team was too stacked and you won too easily?

OR

Have you ever had people leave because the team just wasn't competitive enough?

I would be willing to bet the first one is highly unlikely and the second one very common. Choose stronger teams and if the athletes make it past the first week where they grumble because they aren't on the level they individual desired they stay the whole year, their satisfaction is higher, and they have a higher occurrence of coming back again.

Athletes grumbling isn't the issue. Athletes leaving for another gym that promises to put them on a higher team is the issue.

NOTE: There are diminishing returns to this strategy as more programs adopt it.