All-Star Poor Sportsmanship

[PaSE Dad]

What.

I cannot understand what's happening here.

He gave the "good to start" thumbs up while he was missing a kid?

not sure of full story...but what i was told!

 

[PaSE Dad]

They couldn't just wait 2.5 minutes? SMH.

And I would kill for brawl details/footage. LMAO

There is video on you tube! The coach running on the floor (an the kid running right past her) while the routine going on is the best!

 

[SL&AM]

There is video on you tube! The coach running on the floor (an the kid running right past her) while the routine going on is the best!

Could you be so kind as to link this video for us?

 

[klynn64]

I think the word unethical is one of those words that has a million and one definitions and differ greatly from person to person.

This weekend SL was in a division of 6 and against one team that I guess you could kinda call a rival (the gyms are close location wise)---they took 2nd, we took 3rd. My mom asked me yesterday if I was going to move SL to rival gym and when I asked why she said because they beat us. My mom is one of those win at any costs people, I guarantee she would be totally fine with the NCA L2 team that is really Level 5 athletes and not find it unethical at all---she'd call it smart. Different strokes for different folks. And because I'm nothing like her, I quickly reminded her that we had the opportunity to pick that gym before I even knew about ours and there was no way we would go there.

I agree we all view "unethical" in a different way. That's when the issue of individuals having different value systems enters the conversation.

On the topic of what is or is not ethical I have a question. Hypothetically, if your Mom had a L2 cheer team that got beat by a team of L3, L4 and L5 athletes at NCA, would she still feel it was ethical?

In general, it seems that we often have two separate standards when it comes to ethical vs unethical. One standard for our team and another for everyone else. Behavior that we find acceptable and justified when it's our team suddenly becomes unacceptable and cheating when exhibited by our competitor. All objectivity ceases to exist as the emotion of the moment increases.

Regardless we cannot always count on coaches to establish the benchmark for what is ethically acceptable. No matter how badly we want our CP to take home a win. Sometimes we have to step back and look at a situation with more objectivity. If it's something we find unacceptable from a competitor, then it's likewise unacceptable for our team.

 

[KDCheerMom]

I disagree. When a gym isn't planning to attend NCA. So they decide to form a team and attend NCA "for the experience". Except their team is comprised of L3, L4 and L5 athletes (even Worlds athletes) and they compete at NCA as a L2 team, that is unethical.

So this is not a "stacked" team to me. Stacked to me means athletes with maxed current level skills. But just because they are maxed at the current level doesn't mean they are ready for the next level. Sorry - everyone has their own view of this and I have mine.

Yours feels more like sandbagging not stacked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SL&AM]

I agree we all view "unethical" in a different way. That's when the issue of individuals having different value systems enters the conversation.

On the topic of what is or is not ethical I have a question. Hypothetically, if your Mom had a L2 cheer team that got beat by a team of L3, L4 and L5 athletes at NCA, would she still feel it was ethical?

In general, it seems that we often have two separate standards when it comes to ethical vs unethical. One standard for our team and another for everyone else. Behavior that we find acceptable and justified when it's our team suddenly becomes unacceptable and cheating when exhibited by our competitor. All objectivity ceases to exist as the emotion of the moment increases.

Regardless we cannot always count on coaches to establish the benchmark for what is ethically acceptable. No matter how badly we want our CP to take home a win. Sometimes we have to step back and look at a situation with more objectivity. If it's something we find unacceptable from a competitor, then it's likewise unacceptable for our team.

If her daughters team lost, clearly the judges were paid off and it was rigged or the other team cheated. She has absolutely no ethical compass UNLESS it's helping her.

 

[MomMomMamaMom]

I agree we all view "unethical" in a different way. That's when the issue of individuals having different value systems enters the conversation.

On the topic of what is or is not ethical I have a question. Hypothetically, if your Mom had a L2 cheer team that got beat by a team of L3, L4 and L5 athletes at NCA, would she still feel it was ethical?

In general, it seems that we often have two separate standards when it comes to ethical vs unethical. One standard for our team and another for everyone else. Behavior that we find acceptable and justified when it's our team suddenly becomes unacceptable and cheating when exhibited by our competitor. All objectivity ceases to exist as the emotion of the moment increases.

Regardless we cannot always count on coaches to establish the benchmark for what is ethically acceptable. No matter how badly we want our CP to take home a win. Sometimes we have to step back and look at a situation with more objectivity. If it's something we find unacceptable from a competitor, then it's likewise unacceptable for our team.

I don't love the example above, but struggle with calling something unethical simply because the ethics don't match up with mine. Each coach and program is bound by a very loose code of ethics, and a set of rules that allows for a lot of leeway in team composition and how they operate competitively. Plus each program must make decisions based on their own client base and market, since it is after all a business. Obviously all the competitors in the example you gave agreed to participate on the team as it was composed, so they presumably didn't find it unethical. Which means there probably wasn't a struggle within the program to set a benchmark regarding this. I don't know. It doesn't violate any established code of ethics, it just violates outsiders sense of what they view to be "fair" competitively. And to be honest, I'm not sure that many can agree on what competitive actually means for themselves, much less for everyone else.

 

[klynn64]

I don't love the example above, but struggle with calling something unethical simply because the ethics don't match up with mine. Each coach and program is bound by a very loose code of ethics, and a set of rules that allows for a lot of leeway in team composition and how they operate competitively. Plus each program must make decisions based on their own client base and market, since it is after all a business. Obviously all the competitors in the example you gave agreed to participate on the team as it was composed, so they presumably didn't find it unethical. Which means there probably wasn't a struggle within the program to set a benchmark regarding this. I don't know. It doesn't violate any established code of ethics, it just violates outsiders sense of what they view to be "fair" competitively. And to be honest, I'm not sure that many can agree on what competitive actually means for themselves, much less for everyone else.

Actually the other team was well aware they were exploiting a loophole in the rules and not respecting the intent of the rule. But, they wanted the experience of winning NCA so they chose not to be bound by conscience. And like they said "so what look who has the jacket". Based on what the coach said the decision to do this didn't involve gym philosophy but rather opportunity. The team also received a bid for Summit at NCA. So despite what they stated previously they took the same team to Summit and won. The athletes were already attending Summit and Worlds anyway with their original squad.

I'm not attempting to impose my idea of what is ethical or not ethical to the situation. My view on the subject is relatively tame compared to how others (unrelated to our team and outside of our division) viewed the situation. People we didn't even know were complaining to the EP, writing letters, and even athletes offered up their jackets to our junior team athletes because they felt so bad. As a result of this incident the rule was further modified to close the exploited loophole in order to prevent any future occurrence.

 

[klynn64]

If her daughters team lost, clearly the judges were paid off and it was rigged or the other team cheated. She has absolutely no ethical compass UNLESS it's helping her.

There was no judging issue and the competition wasn't rigged. And, I don't have any issue whatsoever with not winning. After all, my CP attended a gym for five years. They did not win once in all those years.

But we all lose, the industry, the athletes, the coaches, the gyms, the parents, etc. if the credibility of cheer takes a hit. Everyone pays the price for the actions of a few.

I must really have a lot of influence though because the competition rules were changed as a result of this loss. I'm being sarcastic saying this. I have literally zero influence over anything in the cheer realm.

 

[klynn64]

So this is not a "stacked" team to me. Stacked to me means athletes with maxed current level skills. But just because they are maxed at the current level doesn't mean they are ready for the next level. Sorry - everyone has their own view of this and I have mine.

Yours feels more like sandbagging not stacked.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sandbagging it is then.

 

[SL&AM]

There was no judging issue and the competition wasn't rigged. And, I don't have any issue whatsoever with not winning. After all, my CP attended a gym for five years. They did not win once in all those years.

But we all lose, the industry, the athletes, the coaches, the gyms, the parents, etc. if the credibility of cheer takes a hit. Everyone pays the price for the actions of a few.

I must really have a lot of influence though because the competition rules were changed as a result of this loss.

Um, I think you missed the point of my comment...

You said, Hypothetically, if your Mom had a L2 cheer team that got beat by a team of L3, L4 and L5 athletes at NCA, would she still feel it was ethical?

The response was in response to that specific question since I originally brought up that I was raised by a mom who would find the L2 versus L3-5 situation a smart move to ensure a win. I'm not saying that YOU said it was rigged or anything like that.

 

[MomMomMamaMom]

Actually the other team was well aware they were exploiting a loophole in the rules and not respecting the intent of the rule. But, they wanted the experience of winning NCA so they chose not to be bound by conscience. And like they said "so what look who has the jacket". Based on what the coach said the decision to do this didn't involve gym philosophy but rather opportunity. The team also received a bid for Summit at NCA. So despite what they stated previously they took the same team to Summit and won. The athletes were already attending Summit and Worlds anyway with their original squad.

I'm not attempting to impose my idea of what is ethical or not ethical to the situation. My view on the subject is relatively tame compared to how others (unrelated to our team and outside of our division) viewed the situation. People we didn't even know were complaining to the EP, writing letters, and even athletes offered up their jackets to our junior team athletes because they felt so bad. As a result of this incident the rule was further modified to close the exploited loophole in order to prevent any future occurrence.

If this is the incident I believe it to be, your statement is not entirely accurate.The program did not go on record stating they were exploiting a loophole, they instead stated that what they did was within the rules. And I'm not entirely sure that the same thing, or something very near it, couldn't still happen at NCA. Again, I'll assert that this is talking about what is "fair" and not as much about ethics. But I can validate that you don't see a distinction between the two. I might be one of only a few who makes this type of distinction. For the record, I also completely validate the cheer community's response to this incident. Addressing issues of fairness with an EP and making choices to not compete at competitions that allow this to happen are exactly what I think programs and cheerleaders who are opposed to this kind of thing should do.

ETA: eek posting issues

 

[PaSE Dad]

What.

I cannot understand what's happening here.

He gave the "good to start" thumbs up while he was missing a kid?

yep...there was conflicting stories,,but what is fact the coach ran on to the floor while the routine was going on...it was a mess...

 

[PaSE Dad]

Could you be so kind as to link this video for us?

haha...i rather not...

 

[SL&AM]

haha...i rather not... i am sure i will deemed as a bully....

You can PM it to me, I don't mind being considered a bully.