OT Should Parents Have A Say In Whether Or Not They Vaccinate Their Children?

[catlady]

People have been trying for 20 years to prove that vaccines cause autism. All research has shown NO link whatsoever, no matter how much those doing the study's want it to be true, it has been proven over and over that there is no link.

I had night terrors from about 2-12. I can actually remember the last few episodes I had. While I do believe they are necrologic I don't think they are autism. It feels like something completely different. It is like your brain is trapped between asleep and awake. You KNOW you are dreaming, but cannot seem to snap your brain out of it. When I was little, I never remembered them, but as I got older I became more aware.
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The doctors told me for 10 years (I don't know how long before that) the MMR was not linked to ITP but, research now says "yes" there is a link. The research they are doing now at St. Jude's is on night terrors that do not go away in infants and the possible connection to autism. My point only being that they are still looking into the link between the MMR and autism. They have not stopped and while they have found, in your words, "NO link whatsoever" they continue to look at the connection. It is not necessarily the MMR itself but, they research the MMR with certain genetic dispositions, the MMR at the developmental time they give it, the MMR if taken shortly after a virus, the MMR shelf life, etc. Twenty years is nothing with this type of research.

As I said before, I am a fan of vaccines, death IMO is much worse than a neurological or auto-immune disorder. However, with that said, many of these auto-immune diseases are just as life threatening, debilitating and painful as the actual disease and neurological disorders (as well as, some auto-immune issues) are life sentences. Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to worry about the side effects, as well? I'm hoping for the day when the discussion doesn't come down to a Russian Roulette of our choices being the actual disease, another disease or disorder, or hitting the jackpot of being healthy.

You are so right. However it is not the actual virus they claim causing autism, it is the preservative that organization are blaming. It is mercury, or thimerosal, that "experts" say causes the developmental disability.

They did, and continue to research, thimerosal and neurological issues but, they began taking thimerosal out of most vaccines starting in 1999, see link below. Viruses are a huge cause of neurological and auto-immune issues and that is why they continue to look at live vaccines as a possible cause.
http://www.safeminds.org/mercury/mercury_releases/Thimerosal_content_of_US_vaccines.pdf

 

[cheer25mom]

The doctors told me for 10 years (I don't know how long before that) the MMR was not linked to ITP but, research now says "yes" there is a link. The research they are doing now at St. Jude's is on night terrors that do not go away in infants and the possible connection to autism. My point only being that they are still looking into the link between the MMR and autism. They have not stopped and while they have found, in your words, "NO link whatsoever" they continue to look at the connection. It is not necessarily the MMR itself but, they research the MMR with certain genetic dispositions, the MMR at the developmental time they give it, the MMR if taken shortly after a virus, the MMR shelf life, etc. Twenty years is nothing with this type of research.

As I said before, I am a fan of vaccines, death IMO is much worse than a neurological or auto-immune disorder. However, with that said, many of these auto-immune diseases are just as life threatening, debilitating and painful as the actual disease and neurological disorders (as well as, some auto-immune issues) are life sentences. Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to worry about the side effects, as well? I'm hoping for the day when the discussion doesn't come down to a Russian Roulette of our choices being the actual disease, another disease or disorder, or hitting the jackpot of being healthy.



They did, and continue to research, thimerosal and neurological issues but, they began taking thimerosal out of most vaccines starting in 1999, see link below. Viruses are a huge cause of neurological and auto-immune issues and that is why they continue to look at live vaccines as a possible cause.
http://www.safeminds.org/mercury/mercury_releases/Thimerosal_content_of_US_vaccines.pdf

The problem with night terrors in infants is actually diagnosing them. Many doctors say you cannot reliably diagnose a night terror in a child younger than 2-3, just as is the case with many other neurological conditions. Their brains are immature, and change constantly, plus they cannot tell you wether they are aware of their surroundings or not. You rely on parental reports which aren't always unbiased. Sometimes they want a diagnosis, any diagnosis. Many doctors are unwilling to attempt a diagnosis for any behavioral disorder before the age of 3 because the results of testing before this age is just not reliable.


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[nicolee]

The bottom line is that vaccines are not 100% safe and cannot be forced upon anyone because of that. it's not like we are drinking sugar water and then suddenly diseases are eradicated: CHILDREN, are given them, and the outcome cannot be determined until it's too late. Instead of mandating vaccines there should be mandates on making them safer and more effective. Seems like a no brainer to me.

:banghead:

Chemotherapy makes you vomit up your entire gut contents and lose your hair. Radiotherapy can make you infertile. Too much tylenol can give you liver failure. Warfarin can give you internal bleeding.

All medicines are inherently less than 100% safe. But they're safer than death.

 

[SL&AM]

I'm writing this knowing how quickly this can be turned on me, but I'll tell you the story of why I chose NOT to vaccinate either of my daughter's until after the age of 3.

When my husband received his first HIB vaccination what followed was 20 weeks of hell. His temps would go from normal to 104+ in the blink of an eye, no ice bath helped, and he never seized. Thankfully. He would begin screaming in pain for no obvious reasons and his health fell quickly. It wasn't until a doctor tried a full spectrum antibiotic for an extended period of time (4 weeks) that it went away. No one could figure out what happened and it was a long term ordeal because there was no reasoning...no nothing.

It wasn't until he received his booster shot 18 months later with the same effects and history repeating itself that doctors put 2 and 2 together. This time it took a longer period of antibiotics and the fevers jumped worse than the first time. This all of course, second hand from his medical files and his mother.

Knowing what he went through I was already in the middle. I also gave birth in a country that is for vaccines but not the same schedule you see in our country. As a result, they stayed vaccine free for 3 years. Our reasoning for the age of three was:
1. The brain has gone through the bulk of it's growing
2. They had a full understanding of their body, parts, and language---if anything felt funny they knew.
3. Eldest had an egg allergy and some vaccines are cultured in eggs---she outgrew the allergy at age 2
4. 1 vaccine at a time, no combos, no exceptions, 1 vaccine per month

It may not be the perfect reason and it may be a reason some hate me for (by some I mean the outside uneducated population that assume everyone who doesn't follow the schedule is somehow scared of autism), but it was a schedule even their doctors supported and understood. They're both considered up to date now.

 

[caitlyn_the_camille]

Sorry I abandoned this thread for a few days; I didn't forget about it fwiw. Easter celebrations just got the best of me, lol.
All of this information has been immensely helpful and has, as with every good discussion, left me with as many more questions as I now have answers. I kind of skimmed through everything so I could post before going to sleep, (it's 4am my time, woo!) but I'm going to read everything more in depth in the morning in class. Thanks again for everyone's time and responses!

 

[njallday]

I'm writing this knowing how quickly this can be turned on me, but I'll tell you the story of why I chose NOT to vaccinate either of my daughter's until after the age of 3.

When my husband received his first HIB vaccination what followed was 20 weeks of hell. His temps would go from normal to 104+ in the blink of an eye, no ice bath helped, and he never seized. Thankfully. He would begin screaming in pain for no obvious reasons and his health fell quickly. It wasn't until a doctor tried a full spectrum antibiotic for an extended period of time (4 weeks) that it went away. No one could figure out what happened and it was a long term ordeal because there was no reasoning...no nothing.

It wasn't until he received his booster shot 18 months later with the same effects and history repeating itself that doctors put 2 and 2 together. This time it took a longer period of antibiotics and the fevers jumped worse than the first time. This all of course, second hand from his medical files and his mother.

Knowing what he went through I was already in the middle. I also gave birth in a country that is for vaccines but not the same schedule you see in our country. As a result, they stayed vaccine free for 3 years. Our reasoning for the age of three was:
1. The brain has gone through the bulk of it's growing
2. They had a full understanding of their body, parts, and language---if anything felt funny they knew.
3. Eldest had an egg allergy and some vaccines are cultured in eggs---she outgrew the allergy at age 2
4. 1 vaccine at a time, no combos, no exceptions, 1 vaccine per month

It may not be the perfect reason and it may be a reason some hate me for (by some I mean the outside uneducated population that assume everyone who doesn't follow the schedule is somehow scared of autism), but it was a schedule even their doctors supported and understood. They're both considered up to date now.

I support your reasoning 100%. If I ever am fortunate enough to have children I will be changing the schedule for the reasons you listed as well as just giving their immune systems a little more time to develop in case there are side effects of the virus that they need to fight. I'd also like them all separate so you know which one is causing adverse reactions, especially since I did react so terribly to one and it's boosters. One of my public health professors (who contracts with the CDC in her spare time, so I think she is a good source) gave me a list of the "perfect" vaccine schedule with all vaccines separated and spaced out accordingly. The way we do it now is to anticipate for parent laziness/busyness. it's easy to reschedule and move appointments and then suddenly forget about them and never return. That is basically the only reason they are given the way they are given in the US.

 

[cheergirl09]

:banghead:

Chemotherapy makes you vomit up your entire gut contents and lose your hair. Radiotherapy can make you infertile. Too much tylenol can give you liver failure. Warfarin can give you internal bleeding.

All medicines are inherently less than 100% safe. But they're safer than death.

This!!!!!! Amen!!!!!

 

[catlady]

The problem with night terrors in infants is actually diagnosing them. Many doctors say you cannot reliably diagnose a night terror in a child younger than 2-3, just as is the case with many other neurological conditions. Their brains are immature, and change constantly, plus they cannot tell you wether they are aware of their surroundings or not. You rely on parental reports which aren't always unbiased. Sometimes they want a diagnosis, any diagnosis. Many doctors are unwilling to attempt a diagnosis for any behavioral disorder before the age of 3 because the results of testing before this age is just not reliable.
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I'm not quite sure what you are trying to tell me but, I will forewarn you, as a parent that has a child with a serious disorder, I'm tired of these types of responses. Are you saying the doctor at St. Jude should not be looking into the link between night terrors, infants, and autism and he must be a quack because previous thoughts and data say there is no possible way he can get good information? Or, is it that my niece is not capable of describing what her child is going through?

Here's what I will say on Jenny McCarthy and all of us other moms and dads out there with children with diseases and disorders. Us moms and dads are what the doctors rely on to get their first information. So, when us parents make statements such as, "My child had their MMR and then this started happening...." so many doctors, and other parents, are quick to say, "no, that's not it, there is no link between the two, they've looked for years and there's nothing". So, you know that paper you receive when your child gets their vaccines that says, "If your child has a reaction call this number? " You don't call it. We need to stop belittling and shutting up parents when they notice changes in their children after vaccines because, those types of responses are what slows down our research information and dollars. And "yes", my proverbial Cheerio's have been peed upon too many times on this subject, only to find out the MMR can cause my daughter's disorder. The truth is doctors and parents are afraid people will stop vaccinating. Then educate them, tell them the risks are much higher and greater if they don't. But, we need to keep our minds open to the possibility that our current options may be less than perfect and our fears should not trump our progress in looking for something better.

 

[cheer25mom]

I'm not quite sure what you are trying to tell me but, I will forewarn you, as a parent that has a child with a serious disorder, I'm tired of these types of responses. Are you saying the doctor at St. Jude should not be looking into the link between night terrors, infants, and autism and he must be a quack because previous thoughts and data say there is no possible way he can get good information? Or, is it that my niece is not capable of describing what her child is going through?

Here's what I will say on Jenny McCarthy and all of us other moms and dads out there with children with diseases and disorders. Us moms and dads are what the doctors rely on to get their first information. So, when us parents make statements such as, "My child had their MMR and then this started happening...." so many doctors, and other parents, are quick to say, "no, that's not it, there is no link between the two, they've looked for years and there's nothing". So, you know that paper you receive when your child gets their vaccines that says, "If your child has a reaction call this number? " You don't call it. We need to stop belittling and shutting up parents when they notice changes in their children after vaccines because, those types of responses are what slows down our research information and dollars. And "yes", my proverbial Cheerio's have been peed upon too many times on this subject, only to find out the MMR can cause my daughter's disorder. The truth is doctors and parents are afraid people will stop vaccinating. Then educate them, tell them the risks are much higher and greater if they don't. But, we need to keep our minds open to the possibility that our current options may be less than perfect and our fears should not trump our progress in looking for something better.

No, what I am telling you is that based on the research I have read on the subject and what MY doctors have told ME about my condition as a child and the possibility of my child having it too, there simply isn't a reliable diagnostic for most conditions like night terror, autism, and other Nero/behavioral disorders before the age of 2-3. There are too many uncertainties about too many things. Kids brains are rapidly changing and developing. Kids younger than that cannot accurately report what is happening to them, and, like it or not, parents are not always 100% reliable as reporters, myself included. This is a definite issue with any research fine on children younger than 3 with these conditions and will effect the validity of the study and how it is received by the medical community.

Yes, vaccines, in rare cases, have the potential to cause complications. All medications do, along with the diseases they treat. Some can be lessened, but in some cases they will always be there and be a risk. With vaccines, the benefits far outweigh the risks. Does it sink to be the one in a million people that has a complication? Absolutely. Is it fair? No. Does it mean you should be careful about vaccines in the future and potentially choose not to vaccinate? Yes. Are there people out there convinced vaccines are the cause of their child's disorder because they just need something to blame? Absolutely. The Jenny McCarthys of the world are a huge problem and lead to people like you, who have legit claims not being taken seriously.

I had major night terrors for most of my childhood. It is truly a terrifying condition that you cannot understand unless you have experienced it. There are actually very few people out there who remember enough of their terrors to even tell anyone what it feels like. I don't belittle anyone's experience. I am only pointing out that studying any of this in infants is a hugely difficult task that many doctors and scientists believe isn't even reliable in the first place.


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[catlady]

..... there simply isn't a reliable diagnostic for most conditions like night terror, autism, and other Nero/behavioral disorders before the age of 2-3. There are too many uncertainties about too many things.....

.... The Jenny McCarthys of the world are a huge problem and lead to people like you, who have legit claims not being taken seriously.....

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You are correct, doctors used to compare people like me to Jenny McCarthy with their condescending chuckle, right up until the point they were proven wrong. I'm not saying she is correct, I'm saying doctors/people open your mind to the possibilities of a win win situation. You keep telling us how parents aren't reliable resources....how we don't have reliable diagnostics.......there are too many uncertainties.....we can't...... they won't......they said..... I'm familiar with all the "nay saying" and it is detrimental to research dollars and progress. Parents give these doctors their first observations on their child's behavior after vaccines, that information is critical in research but, much of it gets tossed aside because of the exact reasons you stated above. I never called the vaccine hotline to tell them about my daughters reaction because, my doctor told me it was unrelated. I applaud my nieces doctor for sending her to St. Jude's to do further testing, I'd tell her to find a new one if all they were willing to do is tell her "it's too early", "not reliable"....

 

[cheer25mom]

You are correct, doctors used to compare people like me to Jenny McCarthy with their condescending chuckle, right up until the point they were proven wrong. I'm not saying she is correct, I'm saying doctors/people open your mind to the possibilities of a win win situation. You keep telling us how parents aren't reliable resources....how we don't have reliable diagnostics.......there are too many uncertainties.....we can't...... they won't......they said..... I'm familiar with all the "nay saying" and it is detrimental to research dollars and progress. Parents give these doctors their first observations on their child's behavior after vaccines, that information is critical in research but, much of it gets tossed aside because of the exact reasons you stated above. I never called the vaccine hotline to tell them about my daughters reaction because, my doctor told me it was unrelated. I applaud my nieces doctor for sending her to St. Jude's to do further testing, I'd tell her to find a new one if all they were willing to do is tell her "it's too early", "not reliable"....

I understand what you are saying, truly I do, but what if the diagnosis parents get for their infants truly is unreliable and wrong? What if that delays treatment for what is REALLY going on, or causes something to be overlooked? Isn't it possible that a diagnosis made at 6 months old based on limited info available at the time might not be accurate? All I am saying is that I think doctors are wise to reserve judgment on some of this until the child is older because too much changes too quickly in infants and things that may be indicative of a disorder in an older child could just be a transient abnormality in an infant. It's not just that we need better diagnostics, it's that the behavior and neurologic profiles of infants constantly change and are often just NOT reliable indicators for future necrologic issues.


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[catlady]

Their baby is about 26 months and at about 13-14 months started having "night terrors" where he appears awake but, can not be consoled, nor does he appear to acknowledge my niece/nephew when they are trying to console him. Anyhow, because the night terrors are not going away, their pediatrician has now sent them to a pediatric neurologist at St. Jude's in Memphis that is studying this specifically.

I understand what you are saying, truly I do, but what if the diagnosis parents get for their infants truly is unreliable and wrong? What if that delays treatment for what is REALLY going on, or causes something to be overlooked? Isn't it possible that a diagnosis made at 6 months old based on limited info available at the time might not be accurate? All I am saying is that I think doctors are wise to reserve judgment on some of this until the child is older because too much changes too quickly in infants and things that may be indicative of a disorder in an older child could just be a transient abnormality in an infant. It's not just that we need better diagnostics, it's that the behavior and neurologic profiles of infants constantly change and are often just NOT reliable indicators for future necrologic issues.
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I allowed my daughter to be involved in studies, it didn't make her a Guinea Pig. It just means the doctor is going to sit down with you, ask questions, observe the child, pull blood work, possibly look at DNA, etc. He is not going to make any diagnosis, however, he may tell her if he is or is not seeing a common thread. While you may believe doctors are wise to reserve judgment, and I don't necessarily disagree, that does not mean they can't listen and do research. I do believe parent information is relevant to doctors willing to listen.

 

[shawtyyBHADDx3]

Reading this thread honestly makes me want to not have kids any time soon in this country. :banghead:


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[SL&AM]

I allowed my daughter to be involved in studies, it didn't make her a Guinea Pig. It just means the doctor is going to sit down with you, ask questions, observe the child, pull blood work, possibly look at DNA, etc. He is not going to make any diagnosis, however, he may tell her if he is or is not seeing a common thread. While you may believe doctors are wise to reserve judgment, and I don't necessarily disagree, that does not mean they can't listen and do research. I do believe parent information is relevant to doctors willing to listen.

I grew up as a Guinea Pig---14 different experimental chemo's. A handful of those today are on the market curing kids everyday. Research studies are awesome, imo.

 

[njallday]

I grew up as a Guinea Pig---14 different experimental chemo's. A handful of those today are on the market curing kids everyday. Research studies are awesome, imo.

I was in a clinical trial for an antibiotic after getting strep 13 times in one season (or rather one, really long, un curable case that took over 13 rounds of antibiotics)

I still remember the taste and dry heave at the thought of it, but yay science!