OT Should Parents Have A Say In Whether Or Not They Vaccinate Their Children?

[catlady]

I grew up as a Guinea Pig---14 different experimental chemo's. A handful of those today are on the market curing kids everyday. Research studies are awesome, imo.

I was in a clinical trial for an antibiotic after getting strep 13 times in one season (or rather one, really long, un curable case that took over 13 rounds of antibiotics)
I still remember the taste and dry heave at the thought of it, but yay science!

Wow, I have much respect for you all! Cp had a port so we were willing to have them pull an extra vial here and there, DH and I gave blood for genetic reasons and Rh factor studies (cp is Rh pos and I'm Rh neg), and we answer questions. All ITP trials are tested on adults for many years before they allow them to test on kids and since cp responded to IVIg, we knew she would never be asked. SL&AM, if you tried Rituxan or 6MP, those were the two chemo's that finally brought her into the safe zone, she no longer has to be treated and her numbers continue to rise at a snails pace. You all rank right up there with the bravest of brave soldiers in my book, thank you!

 

[SL&AM]

Wow, I have much respect for you all! Cp had a port so we were willing to have them pull an extra vial here and there, DH and I gave blood for genetic reasons and Rh factor studies (cp is Rh pos and I'm Rh neg), and we answer questions. All ITP trials are tested on adults for many years before they allow them to test on kids and since cp responded to IVIg, we knew she would never be asked. SL&AM, if you tried Rituxan or 6MP, those were the two chemo's that finally brought her into the safe zone, she no longer has to be treated and her numbers continue to rise at a snails pace. You all rank right up there with the bravest of brave soldiers in my book, thank you!

Did she have a Hickman? They tried putting that port in me first, but it wouldn't take so I went to a broviac for two years instead. I checked my POG and 6MP is listed, but not Rituxan. It wouldn't surprise me if I tried a variant of it though---about half of what I used isn't currently used or it's been modified and labeled something else instead. Legit the paperwork I got on the possible lifetime side effects was like a book---but worth it. Though my Lymphoma still has a pretty crappy survival rate, the leukemia I faced is one of the most common and most commonly cured in children with modern-day medicines.

My thoughts are with your CP who I hope remains in the safe zone. At my diagnosis I was given a 5% chance of survival and was continually told 'when' I relapsed our only option was a bone marrow transplant. That when never happened and this summer will mark 24 years in remission.

I was in a clinical trial for an antibiotic after getting strep 13 times in one season (or rather one, really long, un curable case that took over 13 rounds of antibiotics)

I still remember the taste and dry heave at the thought of it, but yay science!

That reminds me of a Prednisone. I was on it off and on for two years and it tasted so bad I would hide in any corner of a building to avoid it---by the time I'd get the taste out of my mouth, it was time for the next dose.

 

[catlady]

Did she have a Hickman? They tried putting that port in me first, but it wouldn't take so I went to a broviac for two years instead.

Is it really bad that I don't know? When she had it removed she asked to keep it so, I tried to post a picture of it but, I have no idea how to do get the URL for a picture with a JPG. Anyhow, I found it online and this is what hers looked like:

Titanium Implantable Port | Implantable Port Devices | Bard Access Systems

It was implanted under the skin, she had it for 7 years, and the first day of her chemo it quit working. We were told that was a quite impressive life span for a port, though.

 

[Twinklestars]

Is it really bad that I don't know? When she had it removed she asked to keep it so, I tried to post a picture of it but, I have no idea how to do get the URL for a picture with a JPG. Anyhow, I found it online and this is what hers looked like:

Titanium Implantable Port | Implantable Port Devices | Bard Access Systems

It was implanted under the skin, she had it for 7 years, and the first day of her chemo it quit working. We were told that was a quite impressive life span for a port, though.

My non-cp has the low profile model. She has had it for about a year and a half. She has a kidney disorder and needs fluids frequently. This reminds me that I need to flush it.

 

[catlady]

@Twinklestars I'm so sorry about the kidney disorder. Thank goodness for ports.

 

[Twinklestars]

@Twinklestars I'm so sorry about the kidney disorder. Thank goodness for ports.

Yes. I don't know what we would do without it. She didn't have many accessible veins for fluids and blood draws by the time she got it.

 

[SL&AM]

Is it really bad that I don't know? When she had it removed she asked to keep it so, I tried to post a picture of it but, I have no idea how to do get the URL for a picture with a JPG. Anyhow, I found it online and this is what hers looked like:

Titanium Implantable Port | Implantable Port Devices | Bard Access Systems

It was implanted under the skin, she had it for 7 years, and the first day of her chemo it quit working. We were told that was a quite impressive life span for a port, though.

That is close to a Hickman. My body, on the other hand, was out of the skin...they divided my chest in half and the tube hung outside the center of my chest and went to my central vein.

 

[Tosh]

Let me start out by saying this is JMO! I have three beautiful young ladies I gave birth to and they are all healthy, for the most part. They have all had their vaccines because they were born here in the States. I was born and raised in South America. My oldest daughter had asthma, and was tested for manigitis at 18 months old (thats where the hold a screaming 18 month old baby and stick a needle into her spine to get spinal fluid....not anything I wish on any mother), because of the meds she took for her asthma, she had very bad teeth. My secound daughter has had phneumonia at least 7 times; the last and worst time ever was her senior year in HS where she lost over 16lbs and a 4 day stay in the hospital (American Cheerleader). The reason why I am putting this out there is because growing up, I do not know what a Doctor's visit was, I was brought up in a huge family (16 people in one house; big house ) I do not remember having a classmate or ever knowing someon that was sick....usually only old people were sick. At age 18, after getting my immunizations as it was a requirment to enter the states, I got chicken pox and mummps (spelling). I am not a doctor nor have I done any research on the subject, but I have never seen so many sick children in all my life as when I moved here to the states. It is more realistic to die from starvation in many countries before dying for a medical disease, so that leads me to ask the question: Are vaccinations realy protecting us, or causing more harm?
I do not know the answer to that question, but based on my own personal experience, I think the issue starts with all these vaccines.
Another side of it I will comment on is the financial side. I will not go out there and say "don't get vaccine because it is a money scam", but after many years of working as a product manager for a drug company, it is more about the money and less about saving human lives.
I ask all of you to look at any commercial for any drug, and if you haven't already noticed, you will see that the possible side affects are a hell of a lot worse that the problem that you are taking the durg for.
To each his own, this world will never be perfect for everyone, no matter what we do or how we do it. All we can do is what we individually see is best for us and our immediate families and make our own decisions. I choose to live here in America and raise my kids here because I have A CHOICE as do we all. That is the one thing that seperates us as humans from animals....I refuse to give up my choice and I will not ask/forch anyone else to give up their's. JMO

 

[SheCheers]

:banghead:

Chemotherapy makes you vomit up your entire gut contents and lose your hair. Radiotherapy can make you infertile. Too much tylenol can give you liver failure. Warfarin can give you internal bleeding.

All medicines are inherently less than 100% safe. But they're safer than death.

:banghead: Right, but chemo is treating someone who will most likely die without it. and no one is interested in mandating a law forcing anyone to have chemo if they are healthy and don't want it. Vaccines are given to healthy BABIES, who haven't had a chance to even develop an immune system yet. And they're given to them for things that they have very little chance of actually coming into contact with. Example: There were zero reported cases of diphtheria in the US in 2013 (most recently reported year). A baby probably has a 0% chance of getting it. If my kid WAS to develop diphtheria, do you think there is literally NO treatment for it and the only outcome is death? The treatment is antibiotics. I'll take my chances. I have literally scoured through all the reported cases and statistics on treatment and outcome for every "vaccine preventable" disease. They all have treatments. Most of them can be asymptomatic. Most of them have a very low death rate, especially for an otherwise healthy person. So a preventative IMHO should not have as many risks as a cancer treatment.

 

[cheer25mom]

:banghead: Right, but chemo is treating someone who will most likely die without it. and no one is interested in mandating a law forcing anyone to have chemo if they are healthy and don't want it. Vaccines are given to healthy BABIES, who haven't had a chance to even develop an immune system yet. And they're given to them for things that they have very little chance of actually coming into contact with. Example: There were zero reported cases of diphtheria in the US in 2013 (most recently reported year). A baby probably has a 0% chance of getting it. If my kid WAS to develop diphtheria, do you think there is literally NO treatment for it and the only outcome is death? The treatment is antibiotics. I'll take my chances. I have literally scoured through all the reported cases and statistics on treatment and outcome for every "vaccine preventable" disease. They all have treatments. Most of them can be asymptomatic. Most of them have a very low death rate, especially for an otherwise healthy person. So a preventative IMHO should not have as many risks as a cancer treatment.

It is a lot more complicated than that. The vaccines are the reason they have little chance of contacting the diseases. Take the vaccines away, and the chance of catching the disease skyrockets. Add to that the fact that the chance of a viral mutation compromising the effectiveness of current vaccines goes up and the number of no vaccinated individuals increases and it is a very sticky argument indeed. Non vaccinated individuals only have a minuscule chance of catching the disease as long as the vast majority of people are vaccinated. Stop vaccinating and that goes away and we will be putting kids in iron lungs for polio or worse yet, in coffins. Yes, that sounds dramatic, but it's true. We vaccinate for things that are most likely to kill young children. They have low death rates because we don't have widespread outbreaks of them. A few isolated cases are much different than a disease running rampant. I don't want my infant taking their chances with polio, measles, whooping cough, or diphtheria for sure. Are there diseases that I would be more comfortable risking, like chicken pox, yes, but to trivialize the effects of things like polio and measles is easy until you watch a child almost die from something that is entirely preventable with a simple shot.


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[SheCheers]

@cheer25mom yes but the vast majority of people aren't stopping vaccinating. Only about 2% of the population does not vaccinate. The argument is should parents have a say.


They have a say now. The unvaccinated population isn't sky rocketing. The vast majority of people still do it.

Using my diphtheria example the vaccine was invented in 1921 and started widespread use in the 1930s and 1940s. This was also the same time as indoor plumbing became common. Life was much more unsanitary back then. Medicine wasn't as advanced. So much was different. So many of these illness could be treated much better today and the mortality rate would be much lower. You can't really compare life a century ago with how outcomes would look today.

 

[nicolee]

:banghead: Right, but chemo is treating someone who will most likely die without it. and no one is interested in mandating a law forcing anyone to have chemo if they are healthy and don't want it. Vaccines are given to healthy BABIES, who haven't had a chance to even develop an immune system yet. And they're given to them for things that they have very little chance of actually coming into contact with. Example: There were zero reported cases of diphtheria in the US in 2013 (most recently reported year). A baby probably has a 0% chance of getting it. If my kid WAS to develop diphtheria, do you think there is literally NO treatment for it and the only outcome is death? The treatment is antibiotics. I'll take my chances. I have literally scoured through all the reported cases and statistics on treatment and outcome for every "vaccine preventable" disease. They all have treatments. Most of them can be asymptomatic. Most of them have a very low death rate, especially for an otherwise healthy person. So a preventative IMHO should not have as many risks as a cancer treatment.

Okay with all due respect a lot of this is completely incorrect scientifically.

Mumps, measles, polio, Haem influenzae type B, meningococcus... All can be incredibly nasty. Most of these are viruses, so there is no easy treatment, just symptomatic relief that often isn't enough. Secondly, an infant and a child have about the same small risk of adverse effects from vaccines. Not sure where you're getting your research from but the American Journal of Epidemiology, NMJ, BMJ and most respected pediatric journals have all found no difference.

Thirdly, there is no scientific way a vaccine can harm a baby's immune system. When babies are exposed to attenuated microbes (most vaccines have these 'dead' organisms), they are fully able to mount specific responses. In fact, theoretically, they are able to mount millions of immune responses; the Journal of Pediatrics found that an infant would be able to respond properly to 10000 vaccines at any one time.

Babies most certainly do have adequate immune systems. But the way they become stronger is by access to antigens. When they're born a baby will be exposed to thousands of fecal microbes. Breast milk has microbes. There are thousands of germs on a playground swing. They fight off germs daily – their bodies are incredibly strong. It has even been shown that babies who have dogs, and hence have access to tons of unusual germs, have lower incidence of some allergic conditions.

Finally, do you know the reason there were zero cases of diptheria in 2013? Because of vaccination. Why do kids not get measles frequently any more? Because of vaccination. Why is polio extremely rare? Because of vaccination. Contrary to popular belief, though, if people continue to not vaccinate, some diseases can still propagate. Unvaccinated children pick them up from various places and spread it around the playground. If you do not vaccinate your child, you put the entire community at risk.

After years of studying this stuff, I've been trying really hard with this thread not to sound condescending. But I don't really care anymore.

 

[cheer25mom]

@cheer25mom yes but the vast majority of people aren't stopping vaccinating. Only about 2% of the population does not vaccinate. The argument is should parents have a say.


They have a say now. The unvaccinated population isn't sky rocketing. The vast majority of people still do it.

Using my diphtheria example the vaccine was invented in 1921 and started widespread use in the 1930s and 1940s. This was also the same time as indoor plumbing became common. Life was much more unsanitary back then. Medicine wasn't as advanced. So much was different. So many of these illness could be treated much better today and the mortality rate would be much lower. You can't really compare life a century ago with how outcomes would look today.

Polio and measles in young children are still deadly and difficult to treat. Babies die from measles every year. If fewer people vaccinate, more babies will die. I have watched a baby with measles struggle for life, even with all of modern medicine at our fingertips, we couldn't do anything to stop it. We as a generation have never had to watch our children die from these diseases or live in fear of them. Talk to someone who remembers polio. It is no more treatable today than it was then. Most of what we vaccinate against is viral. Antibiotics are useless against them. That's why we vaccinate. We don't have a good way to treat them, period.


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[SheCheers]

@nicole it's really ok. I can tell you feel strongly about it and that's fine. I am very confident in my research and my decision and don't take it personally.

I agree that an immune system being exposed to germs makes it stronger. It's the other stuff they put in the vaccines that concerns me. Show me a long term safety and efficacy study not funded in some way by a pharmaceutical company and I could maybe see your point.

 

[SheCheers]

Polio and measles in young children are still deadly and difficult to treat. Babies die from measles every year. If fewer people vaccinate, more babies will die. I have watched a baby with measles struggle for life, even with all of modern medicine at our fingertips, we couldn't do anything to stop it. We as a generation have never had to watch our children die from these diseases or live in fear of them. Talk to someone who remembers polio. It is no more treatable today than it was then. Most of what we vaccinate against is viral. Antibiotics are useless against them. That's why we vaccinate. We don't have a good way to treat them, period.


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When you say "baby" with measles, how old was the baby? What year was this? Are you in the US?