All-Star Starting A Discussion: The Safety Of Spring Floor Vs... Well.. Anything Else

[cheergirl4444]

Double backs were legal.

i know that double backs were legal at some point, but i was talking about since i have been cheerleading. they were never legal during that time so we had no motivation to work towards them.

 

[AScheer]

Most of my posts just come from my thinking. I have one of those brains that just DOES not stop (hence why I only sleep like 5 hours a night). This particular year with Amber I just noticed how we always seem to have a large increase in injuries during this part of the year. I also notice how, while there is a general love of cheerleading in the gym, there is always halfway said jokes from everyone (even coaches from other gyms that are on our open team) how everyone just wants to 'get through' the high school season. Then I really started observing. In our area there are plenty of teams that have an assortment of leveled athletes. Level 2s, 3s, 4s, and 5s are all on the same team. But what levels do I see the most injured during this time? Level 5s and Level 4s. Level 3s and 2s on high school teams have a much lower incidence of injury. But thinking about it.. it shouldn't be that way. Level 4s and 5s are better trained, more coordinated... they should be better physically prepared for high school teams. And it isn't just at high school practice where these athletes are getting injured. It is also at Rays during this time period that the incidence of injury increases. So, it stands to reason there are a few causes:
- Level 4 and Level 5 athletes have the ability to perform higher level tumbling skills. When asked to perform them on a hard floor their technique changes and alternating between surfaces increases the likelihood that incorrect timing and technique will be used on the wrong surface
-Level 4 and Level 5 athletes on a high school team (even if its just 4 of them) increase the ability of the team to try more difficult building skills. the coaches know at least one person on the team has the ability to compete a skill even if the 3 or 4 others involved have no clue what they are doing (high school coaches tend to not be the best judge of what is possible) so they feel the level 5 abilities will rub off on the level 2 and 3 athletes and they have a shot at using it to make routines more difficult
-Coaches will have the level 5 athlete compete their level 5 skill an abnormal amount of times during a routine to make up for a lack of other level 5 athletes
-The wear and tear of high level skills on hard floor. For all your runners out there... consider running the difference between running on cement and asphalt (if you run you can feel the difference).
-High schools seem to have a practice schedule that is insane. 5 days a week... pounding away attempting things they have no good reason trying.

In short, limiting teams to level 3 on hard floor and in high school would prevent a lot of injuries for multiple reasons AND create more business opportunities for all-star gyms.

Now these types of correlations are hard to see by the naked eye, but I have spent a good deal of my life looking for them (and I have a knack for it). Usually something like this would only be found with good tracking and regression analysis.

But there is no tracking. There is no good system to see all of this stuff. And, no, I don't have a plan. I wish I did. I don't have the power, resources, or influence to start something to do this. What I do have is a platform to spur discussion and raise the awareness of everyone. Maybe, just maybe, someone else will have a spark and something.

Isn't this a little unfair for the high schools that do have knowledgeable coaches and that know how much and how often to push their athletes and what their limits are? I know GA high schools are unlike ours here and their season is compact and crazy intense, but I don't think they should be limited, instead it should come down to having good coaches that know what they're doing. I know that good coaches at schools are the minority, but there are still a lot of schools out there that do and those teams shouldn't be punished because of the others. I ultimately think a level system for schools is the best solution, but no matter what you will always have teams (school or allstars) who compete in a level they shouldn't. You could turn it around too to bad allstar gyms. Lets face it not all gyms are Rays or even good local ones. Some are downright scary and the coaches at them really don't have any business running a gym, but no one is mentioning them.

 

[Deleted member 15]

i know that double backs were legal at some point, but i was talking about since i have been cheerleading. they were never legal during that time so we had no motivation to work towards them.

I guess we have different definitions of always.

 

[King]

i know that double backs were legal at some point, but i was talking about since i have been cheerleading. they were never legal during that time so we had no motivation to work towards them.

And if all twisting on hard floor was made illegal someone 15 years from now would feel like the same way about twisting that you do about double backs. Whats the difference?

 

[cupieqt]

It's not fair. That is the only argument I've seen against stricter safety regulations. It's not fair to be paralyzed either. Maybe you would like to poop in a bag for the rest of your life but at least you got to do your full at the Homecoming game! So what if it was a little muddy. The coach knew it would pump the crowd up even more. No matter that you can't walk anymore--but that was such a common skill, everyone can do that.

Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is safe.

 

[SarahS]

Most of my posts just come from my thinking. I have one of those brains that just DOES not stop (hence why I only sleep like 5 hours a night). This particular year with Amber I just noticed how we always seem to have a large increase in injuries during this part of the year. I also notice how, while there is a general love of cheerleading in the gym, there is always halfway said jokes from everyone (even coaches from other gyms that are on our open team) how everyone just wants to 'get through' the high school season. Then I really started observing. In our area there are plenty of teams that have an assortment of leveled athletes. Level 2s, 3s, 4s, and 5s are all on the same team. But what levels do I see the most injured during this time? Level 5s and Level 4s. Level 3s and 2s on high school teams have a much lower incidence of injury. But thinking about it.. it shouldn't be that way. Level 4s and 5s are better trained, more coordinated... they should be better physically prepared for high school teams. And it isn't just at high school practice where these athletes are getting injured. It is also at Rays during this time period that the incidence of injury increases. So, it stands to reason there are a few causes:
- Level 4 and Level 5 athletes have the ability to perform higher level tumbling skills. When asked to perform them on a hard floor their technique changes and alternating between surfaces increases the likelihood that incorrect timing and technique will be used on the wrong surface
-Level 4 and Level 5 athletes on a high school team (even if its just 4 of them) increase the ability of the team to try more difficult building skills. the coaches know at least one person on the team has the ability to compete a skill even if the 3 or 4 others involved have no clue what they are doing (high school coaches tend to not be the best judge of what is possible) so they feel the level 5 abilities will rub off on the level 2 and 3 athletes and they have a shot at using it to make routines more difficult
-Coaches will have the level 5 athlete compete their level 5 skill an abnormal amount of times during a routine to make up for a lack of other level 5 athletes
-The wear and tear of high level skills on hard floor. For all your runners out there... consider running the difference between running on cement and asphalt (if you run you can feel the difference).
-High schools seem to have a practice schedule that is insane. 5 days a week... pounding away attempting things they have no good reason trying.

In short, limiting teams to level 3 on hard floor and in high school would prevent a lot of injuries for multiple reasons AND create more business opportunities for all-star gyms.

Now these types of correlations are hard to see by the naked eye, but I have spent a good deal of my life looking for them (and I have a knack for it). Usually something like this would only be found with good tracking and regression analysis.

But there is no tracking. There is no good system to see all of this stuff. And, no, I don't have a plan. I wish I did. I don't have the power, resources, or influence to start something to do this. What I do have is a platform to spur discussion and raise the awareness of everyone. Maybe, just maybe, someone else will have a spark and something.

I like where you're going, generally, with this discussion, but please realize that not all high school coaches are completely ignorant, nor do they blithely throw things into routines just to score higher when to do so would be unsafe. I admire your passion for keeping athletes safe by starting this discussion, but I'd wager that you'd sway more high school coaches to your way of thinking if you didn't make casual references to their ineptitude. I think the conversation has diverged from a "what's the safest surface to cheer on?" discussion to a discussion on coaches pushing athletes into unsafe realms. I don't disagree that we should talk about this, because I can recognize that this is a problem, but please realize that many high school coaches work to their utmost to be on top of industry safety standards and practices, and would welcome some of the changes you're proposing.

What I'd like, as a high school coach? A level play system. Some event producers have varsity intermediate and advanced divisions at their competitions, and I'd love for that to be instituted at the state level. I'd love a national governing body with teeth that required certified coaches and a level play system. As that would certainly take years to institute, in the interim, I'd love to be able to be certified under USASF as a high school coach (I'd like it if rec coaches could be certified under USASF, too, since many companies are now using USASF level rules basically verbatim for rec competitions). If this is the industry standard, why not make it standard across the whole US cheerleading community? I know that high school rules diverge from all star rules in many ways, so this might create a problem... but at least it is something. What about AACCA and USASF working together to create a leveled credentialing system similar to USASF's (with written, hands-on, and PFE sections)? The problem remains that any "requirement" would be fairly useless without governing body that is recognized by all state high school athletics associations... and many cheerleading programs don't even fall under the purview of those athletic associations, anyway. I wish we could hang a banner up at the school, identifying us as having coaches certified (by ...someone?) and that it was advertised in such a way that parents would ask their local high school administration if they have certified coaches prior to allowing their kids to participate. I wish coaches had to prove certification before their teams were allowed to participate in competitions (but what company will turn away paying participants because of lack of certification, and again, certified by... whom?)

Just throwing ideas out there, not sure of how possible they might be to implement. Definitely diverged from the hard floor vs spring floor discussion, sorry.

 

[coachrah]

It's not fair. That is the only argument I've seen against stricter safety regulations. It's not fair to be paralyzed either. Maybe you would like to poop in a bag for the rest of your life but at least you got to do your full at the Homecoming game! So what if it was a little muddy. The coach knew it would pump the crowd up even more. No matter that you can't walk anymore--but that was such a common skill, everyone can do that.

Just because it is legal doesn't mean it is safe.

Not to mention sometimes we mistake the crowd's gasps as that of awe rather than "what an idiot"...

 

[King]

I like where you're going, generally, with this discussion, but please realize that not all high school coaches are completely ignorant, nor do they blithely throw things into routines just to score higher when to do so would be unsafe. I admire your passion for keeping athletes safe by starting this discussion, but I'd wager that you'd sway more high school coaches to your way of thinking if you didn't make casual references to their ineptitude. I think the conversation has diverged from a "what's the safest surface to cheer on?" discussion to a discussion on coaches pushing athletes into unsafe realms. I don't disagree that we should talk about this, because I can recognize that this is a problem, but please realize that many high school coaches work to their utmost to be on top of industry safety standards and practices, and would welcome some of the changes you're proposing.

What I'd like, as a high school coach? A level play system. Some event producers have varsity intermediate and advanced divisions at their competitions, and I'd love for that to be instituted at the state level. I'd love a national governing body with teeth that required certified coaches and a level play system. As that would certainly take years to institute, in the interim, I'd love to be able to be certified under USASF as a high school coach (I'd like it if rec coaches could be certified under USASF, too, since many companies are now using USASF level rules basically verbatim for rec competitions). If this is the industry standard, why not make it standard across the whole US cheerleading community? I know that high school rules diverge from all star rules in many ways, so this might create a problem... but at least it is something. What about AACCA and USASF working together to create a leveled credentialing system similar to USASF's (with written, hands-on, and PFE sections)? The problem remains that any "requirement" would be fairly useless without governing body that is recognized by all state high school athletics associations... and many cheerleading programs don't even fall under the purview of those athletic associations, anyway. I wish we could hang a banner up at the school, identifying us as having coaches certified (by ...someone?) and that it was advertised in such a way that parents would ask their local high school administration if they have certified coaches prior to allowing their kids to participate. I wish coaches had to prove certification before their teams were allowed to participate in competitions (but what company will turn away paying participants because of lack of certification, and again, certified by... whom?)

Just throwing ideas out there, not sure of how possible they might be to implement. Definitely diverged from the hard floor vs spring floor discussion, sorry.

The unfortunate situation for the high school coach is is very adept and what he/she does is that they are a minority EXTREMELY outnumbered by the rest. A lil googling said there are about 15,000 high schools in America. I would throw out there that most have a cheerleading team. How many qualified cheer coaches are there coaching high school? 10? 100? 500? 1000? 7500? If even only half are qualified that means there is at least 7,500 schools performing skills incorrectly. Average 10 girls a squad? 75,000 girls with inept coaches. We have to be looking at the big picture. While your coaches might be awesome! (and I am sure there are some great ones) the VAST majority are not.

 

[King]

Someone sent me a study that says building accounts for 60% of the injuries in all cheerleading (so gymnastics for 40%... which makes sense because the vast majority of the country cannot attempt a tumbling skill past level 3 but can attempt stunting skills up to level 6 in high school).

Would you all be interested in reading it?

 

[SarahS]

The unfortunate situation for the high school coach is is very adept and what he/she does is that they are a minority EXTREMELY outnumbered by the rest. A lil googling said there are about 15,000 high schools in America. I would throw out there that most have a cheerleading team. How many qualified cheer coaches are there coaching high school? 10? 100? 500? 1000? 7500? If even only half are qualified that means there is at least 7,500 schools performing skills incorrectly. Average 10 girls a squad? 75,000 girls with inept coaches. We have to be looking at the big picture. While your coaches might be awesome! (and I am sure there are some great ones) the VAST majority are not.

May I ask where you got your statistics for your statement that "the VAST majority [of high school coaches] are not [qualified]"? I was not able to find the total number of AACCA-certified coaches online, but I searched my last name (Smith) and found that there are 172 AACCA-certified Coach Smiths in the US. I would guess (very unscientifically, based on that one name) that there are thousands of AACCA-certified coaches in the US. If AACCA certification is not enough to be "qualified," then what is? NYSCA? NCSSE? All of the above? More? (Did you read my question about allowing high school coaches to be certified under USASF? What do you think of that?) What resources exist for high school coaches to become "qualified"? By shifting the argument from "we need to make sure that cheerleading is performed on a suitable surface" to "we need to make sure that cheerleading is performed under a qualified coach" you're left in a bit of a quandary - what or who determines qualification? I understand that this is in the all star forum, but there's no need to be so all-star-centric that you alienate "the VAST majority" of the audience to which you should be making your argument. (And I'm on your side!! I agree with many suggestions you've offered! But, man, it is tough to be supportive when I and my peers are very obviously second-class in your estimation.)

The thrust of my argument is this: because there is no national governing body for high school cheerleading with any real power (whereas there is USASF for all star cheer, and arguments could be made about its "power," I'm sure, but at least there are standardized rules at competitions and standardized certifications for coaches recognized across the country that indicate, at least ostensibly, a coach's competence) you will *always* be able to say that high school coaches are "unqualified" for one reason or another. That doesn't get to the heart of the problem: making sure that coaches are educated up to a particular standard (wherein they'd recognize, for instance, what skills can safely be performed on each type of surface they may encounter), making sure that parents are aware of the standards and expect their school teams to adhere to them, and making sure that there are no incentives for violating the standards - these appear to be the same kind of goals the USASF is trying to achieve in the all-star cheer world. How can we work toward achieving these aims in the high school cheerleading realm?

 

[Deleted member 15]

I'd love to be able to be certified under USASF as a high school coach (I'd like it if rec coaches could be certified under USASF, too, since many companies are now using USASF level rules basically verbatim for rec competitions).

What is stopping you from getting USASF Credentialed?

 

[SarahS]

What is stopping you from getting USASF Credentialed?

There's no straightforward process to do so. Where do I go to take the tests? Who administers them? How would I get PFE certification without a "gym owner" to sign off for me? Other than reading through the rules and studying as much through online forums and videos and going to competitions, how would I prepare for these tests (as I wouldn't have a USASF-certified coach to act as a mentor)? I couldn't find answers to these questions on USASF's site and uncertain to whom I should direct them, as I am not an all star coach.

 

[Deleted member 15]

There's no straightforward process to do so. Where do I go to take the tests? Who administers them? How would I get PFE certification without a "gym owner" to sign off for me? Other than reading through the rules and studying as much through online forums and videos and going to competitions, how would I prepare for these tests (as I wouldn't have a USASF-certified coach to act as a mentor)? I couldn't find answers to these questions on USASF's site and uncertain to whom I should direct them, as I am not an all star coach.

Good questions. Some of the info can be found on http://usasf.net/programs/coachcred/.

There are 2 parts to the test, written and hands on. You need to be a USASF Member, which costs $40 per year for an individual. Written can be downloaded once you become a member and set up your online profile. The completed written test is taken to the hands on test which are offered in conjunction with all USASF regional meetings during the summer plus at several coaches conferences. A USASF credentialer will administer the hands on portion of the test. These people are coaches and gym owners that are credentialed and selected by USASF regional directors.

Levels 1 and 2 don't requires a PFE. I've never looked into ways around a PFE, but I'm guessing it's possible because there are several people that are not affiliated with a gym, such as choreographers, that are credentialed.

Questions should be directed toward Angela Jones ([email protected]).

 

[cheersafety]

May I ask where you got your statistics for your statement that "the VAST majority [of high school coaches] are not [qualified]"? I was not able to find the total number of AACCA-certified coaches online, but I searched my last name (Smith) and found that there are 172 AACCA-certified Coach Smiths in the US. I would guess (very unscientifically, based on that one name) that there are thousands of AACCA-certified coaches in the US. If AACCA certification is not enough to be "qualified," then what is? NYSCA? NCSSE? All of the above? More? (Did you read my question about allowing high school coaches to be certified under USASF? What do you think of that?) What resources exist for high school coaches to become "qualified"? By shifting the argument from "we need to make sure that cheerleading is performed on a suitable surface" to "we need to make sure that cheerleading is performed under a qualified coach" you're left in a bit of a quandary - what or who determines qualification? I understand that this is in the all star forum, but there's no need to be so all-star-centric that you alienate "the VAST majority" of the audience to which you should be making your argument. (And I'm on your side!! I agree with many suggestions you've offered! But, man, it is tough to be supportive when I and my peers are very obviously second-class in your estimation.)

Just curious how does an AACCA certification which was made for cheerleading the activity (see AACCA position paper that cheer is an athletic activity) teach coaches sport coaching risk management? Where in the AACCA manual is the list of progressions for coaches to follow when they teach skills?

The thrust of my argument is this: because there is no national governing body for high school cheerleading with any real power (whereas there is USASF for all star cheer, and arguments could be made about its "power," I'm sure, but at least there are standardized rules at competitions and standardized certifications for coaches recognized across the country that indicate, at least ostensibly, a coach's competence) you will *always* be able to say that high school coaches are "unqualified" for one reason or another. That doesn't get to the heart of the problem: making sure that coaches are educated up to a particular standard (wherein they'd recognize, for instance, what skills can safely be performed on each type of surface they may encounter), making sure that parents are aware of the standards and expect their school teams to adhere to them, and making sure that there are no incentives for violating the standards - these appear to be the same kind of goals the USASF is trying to achieve in the all-star cheer world. How can we work toward achieving these aims in the high school cheerleading realm?

 

[SarahS]

Just curious how does an AACCA certification which was made for cheerleading the activity (see AACCA position paper that cheer is an athletic activity) teach coaches sport coaching risk management? Where in the AACCA manual is the list of progressions for coaches to follow when they teach skills?

The whole course is about risk management ("AACCA has partnered with the National Federation of State High School Association's Coaches Education Program to produce an outstanding risk management course for spirit coaches from school to all-star, youth to college." http://aacca.org/content.aspx?item=News/online-cheer-safety-course.xml). I don't want to get in trouble for copying parts of the course, but unit titles include Safety Awareness and Legal Liability, Spotting, Performer Readiness, and Skill Progressions (among other topics). In the unit on Skill Progressions, under the "Resources" tab, there is a lengthy article detailing landing position, tumbling, and partner stunt progressions as well as a partner stunt progression checklist. Is that what you're looking for?