All-Star Starting A Discussion: The Safety Of Spring Floor Vs... Well.. Anything Else

[kc2294]

Actually, let me ask that in a different way. Everything is safe to stunt on. I have stunted on hard floor, cement, grass, wood floor, in living rooms, at Wal-mart, on a highway (fun story), at a football game in the stands, at rock concerts, in the airport. Actually stunting and hitting your stunt it doesn't matter where you go. It's all safe.

What about if your stunt doesn't hit? If your flyer falls from the top? Is hard floor safe to fall on from the top of a stunt or basket?

if the bases do their jobs and don't allow the flyer to drop. i think so, but at a noncompetitive level or small girls, it is difficult to trust that a flyer will not hit the floor.

 

[munchkinmom]

Level 2 on concrete 14&up keeping NFHS's rule of no basket tosses on courts, Level 1 on concrete U14 w/level 2 tumbling
Level 3 on hard floor, except a limitation to level 2 tosses for the U14 crowd.
Both with the standard that all tosses should be taught on a landing mat over a hard floor or a spring floor until the group can consistently execute the toss without spotter assistance.
Why 14? Because while some kids can be taught to make sure they are in a position to save someone's life even though it means they may end up pretty hurt themselves when a stunt or toss goes wrong, it's a lot more likely that a high schooler can do this than a middle or elementary schooler. If something goes very, very wrong, the younger bunch may panic instead of react.
I have been out of contact with the 12-13 yo bunch for a while, kids that age may be capable of more than I give them credit for here, so if the great "they" say the age split could be lowered to 12, I'd be comfortable with that.

 

[SharkDad]

this was posted in a different thread, but I thought it was relevant to this discussion: http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNews_Detail.aspx?ID=201111080037&Type=aTOD

This coach made the decision to move a basket toss off a mat. You can say "that doesn't apply to us" because it happened in Taiwan, but I am sure we all know of situations in many countries where this happens, including the US.

I feel sorry for this team and that family, and more importantly don't want to see it happen again.

 

[SharkDad]

Here is the first CHEERMaD article on safety.

http://cheermad.com/safety-first-2/

Again, accomplishing a skill on an improper surface: back handsprings on the grass. We all know this is very common in spite of safety articles pointing out it is a bad practice. Gymnasts never perform or practice outside of an approved facility or not on approved surfaces, why do we allow it at any level--including rec, school or college?

This industry is allowing this sport to be a dangerous environment for our athletes. I'd love to see movement for a significant change, and would happy to help in the effort.

 

[fullpass]

My daughter has been cheering in All Stars since she was 5. We have a firm rule in our family that there is no tumbling or stunting outside of the gym ever. She is allowed to do cartwheels, round offs and occasionally walkovers if she has permission but that's it. No stunting in pools, on the beach, at friends houses etc. Period. It's a zero tolerance rule and my CP knows that if I see her do it even once then we are done with cheer.

For me this is a very important issue. I know a lot of people think I'm way too extreme and that's fine. But, I have a LOT of friends who were gymnasts and cheerleaders who now have back and joint problems far too early in life. I don't kid myself into thinking that a spring floor will eliminate injury but in my mind, the impact of tumbling on any non-spring floor is just too much. We have never done school cheer, AYF, Pop Warner etc because of the surfaces they perform on.

Just my 2 cents

 

[laughAlittle]

Thinking about this a bit more:

Limit Level 2 on any surface that is NOT hard floor or spring floor. At games you would be able to do halfs and extensions. Straight cradles. Handsprings. Only extended pyramids while connected. Only straight cradles. When it comes to cheering on your team, that is all that really matters anyway.

how do you enforce that though? have cheer refs at all sporting events? we have already seen illegal stunting being done at a showcase & performed at cheersport, with nothing being done to stop it, how in the world could we prevent anything larger?

 

[King]

how do you enforce that though? have cheer refs at all sporting events? we have already seen illegal stunting being done at a showcase & performed at cheersport, with nothing being done to stop it, how in the world could we prevent anything larger?

You cannot enforce it on a case by case basis. You have to eliminate the 'positive' motivations for people to do things illegally. For instance: if high school teams were not allowed to compete fulls you would see less girls attempt them during games (because there is no good reason to). You can't police and stop everyone, but you can give reasons to encourage smarter behavior.

With all cheerleading (and everything you do) there is risk. In all sports there is risk. And sometimes tragedy. And the best coach in the world with the best athletes sometimes cannot fully prevent all injuries. The key is trying to eliminate as much risk as possible while not impinging on peoples ability to fully join in and grow cheerleading.

 

[SharkDad]

My daughter has been cheering in All Stars since she was 5. We have a firm rule in our family that there is no tumbling or stunting outside of the gym ever. She is allowed to do cartwheels, round offs and occasionally walkovers if she has permission but that's it. No stunting in pools, on the beach, at friends houses etc. Period. It's a zero tolerance rule and my CP knows that if I see her do it even once then we are done with cheer.

For me this is a very important issue. I know a lot of people think I'm way too extreme and that's fine. But, I have a LOT of friends who were gymnasts and cheerleaders who now have back and joint problems far too early in life. I don't kid myself into thinking that a spring floor will eliminate injury but in my mind, the impact of tumbling on any non-spring floor is just too much. We have never done school cheer, AYF, Pop Warner etc because of the surfaces they perform on.

Just my 2 cents

I wish the Cheer industry were as concerned and careful about your child's safety as you were. You can never eliminate risk in youth sports, but you are doing what you can to reduce it.

If you feel like you are being too extreme, I know a place where you might feel right at home. . .

ETA: That last comment was joking and NOT a recruiting attempt

 

[SharkDad]

how do you enforce that though? have cheer refs at all sporting events? we have already seen illegal stunting being done at a showcase & performed at cheersport, with nothing being done to stop it, how in the world could we prevent anything larger?

You cannot enforce it on a case by case basis. You have to eliminate the 'positive' motivations for people to do things illegally. For instance: if high school teams were not allowed to compete fulls you would see less girls attempt them during games (because there is no good reason to). You can't police and stop everyone, but you can give reasons to encourage smarter behavior.

With all cheerleading (and everything you do) there is risk. In all sports there is risk. And sometimes tragedy. And the best coach in the world with the best athletes sometimes cannot fully prevent all injuries. The key is trying to eliminate as much risk as possible while not impinging on peoples ability to fully join in and grow cheerleading.

The sport can start by creating the rules for safety at all levels in the first place. There is nowhere near the same level of safety emphasized at school or rec level competition and there are not any rules for sideline cheer. AACCA safety certification for coaches is encourage but not required everywhere and definitely not enforced.

 

[laughAlittle]

You cannot enforce it on a case by case basis. You have to eliminate the 'positive' motivations for people to do things illegally. For instance: if high school teams were not allowed to compete fulls you would see less girls attempt them during games (because there is no good reason to). You can't police and stop everyone, but you can give reasons to encourage smarter behavior.

With all cheerleading (and everything you do) there is risk. In all sports there is risk. And sometimes tragedy. And the best coach in the world with the best athletes sometimes cannot fully prevent all injuries. The key is trying to eliminate as much risk as possible while not impinging on peoples ability to fully join in and grow cheerleading.

This is not completely true. People will still want to advance their skills, for a possible transition to allstars/college for example. No body is going to say "well HS does not allow fulls, so im gonna stop progressing at combinations to a layout". There are still many incentives for people to learn harder and more dangerous skills.

The main issue we have is.... cheerleading is one of the most physically straining sports out there, cheerleaders perform acts that most people cannot dream of doing. That is a main reason why its dangerous. Flipping over people high in the air and twisting while doing layouts is very difficult. No matter what we do, there will be injuries. We can just thank technology for how far the health field has advanced, which leads to higher success rates when people do get hurt.

 

[SarahS]

Here is the first CHEERMaD article on safety.

http://cheermad.com/safety-first-2/

Again, accomplishing a skill on an improper surface: back handsprings on the grass. We all know this is very common in spite of safety articles pointing out it is a bad practice. Gymnasts never perform or practice outside of an approved facility or not on approved surfaces, why do we allow it at any level--including rec, school or college?

This industry is allowing this sport to be a dangerous environment for our athletes. I'd love to see movement for a significant change, and would happy to help in the effort.

The problem with this not that a BHS was performed on grass; rather, it was performed on *wet* grass on a torn-up field. I'm a rec and HS coach, and I walk the field both before the game and before the halftime performance to make sure that the surface is safe. If it isn't, we adjust the routine: yes, my cheerleaders have gone out at halftime and simply done crowd-involvement cheers with no stunts or tumbling when the field has been a huge unsafe mess.

I like the idea of limiting HS cheerleading to modified level 3/4 rules on flat mats (in my "perfect" vision, layouts would be allowed in running tumbling, a single tuck allowed in standing tumbling, single twist cradles out of one leg stunts, kick single twist baskets, and keep the no-inversion (well, very few inversion, lol) rules high school has currently), and even more limitations on hard surfaces without mats. That is basically what my teams do now - I don't like the idea of teaching more advanced skills without a spring floor. But what they do, they do well (and safely).

For those who have said that competitive HS cheerleading teams should be limited to using spring floors, period, end of story... consider that in some parts of the country, there aren't all star gyms or gymnastics centers on every corner. The nearest one to me is 45 minutes away. There is no space available in the high school to set up a permanent spring floor. I work really, really hard to make sure I'm current on certifications and safety information. I follow proper progressions and I highlight safety before everything. I don't think my teams should be ground-bound because we cannot possibly have access to a spring floor for practices.

 

[King]

This is not completely true. People will still want to advance their skills, for a possible transition to allstars/college for example. No body is going to say "well HS does not allow fulls, so im gonna stop progressing at combinations to a layout". There are still many incentives for people to learn harder and more dangerous skills.

The main issue we have is.... cheerleading is one of the most physically straining sports out there, cheerleaders perform acts that most people cannot dream of doing. That is a main reason why its dangerous. Flipping over people high in the air and twisting while doing layouts is very difficult. No matter what we do, there will be injuries. We can just thank technology for how far the health field has advanced, which leads to higher success rates when people do get hurt.

You just said its not completely true then agreed with me?

 

[laughAlittle]

You just said its not completely true then agreed with me?

no, I said that you cannot keep people from wanting to progress & that no matter what there will be injuries, im confused where i agree with you.

 

[King]

no, I said that you cannot keep people from wanting to progress & that no matter what there will be injuries, im confused where i agree with you.

ok, so how is:For instance: if high school teams were not allowed to compete fulls you would see less girls attempt them during games (because there is no good reason to).

not true? if they were not allowed to compete them less girls would work on them for high school because less girls would be needed to throw them? where is the impetus?

 

[laughAlittle]

ok, so how is:For instance: if high school teams were not allowed to compete fulls you would see less girls attempt them during games (because there is no good reason to).

not true? if they were not allowed to compete them less girls would work on them for high school because less girls would be needed to throw them? where is the impetus?

the driving force is called being human and always wanting to be better than before. basketball players dont ever go for half court shots as a play, but they still do them at practice, football players do insane tackling drills that theyll never need, & people that are about to age out and are on a level 4 team still try to get their full....

everyone in the world wants to always get better than they were before, people live with no limits, at least that is how I live, no one should let anything get in their way of success.