All-Star The Cheeropedia

[icheer8796]

I think this is a really good idea! I can't wait til it gets up and running.
But just btw, International is spelled wrong on the main page.

Yay it's fixed now! haha. I'm a spelling nerd.

 

[King]

@kingston

we do a bit of a hybrid style. If you are facing the stunt the person on the right is the main and they are facing sideways with toe and heel. The person on the left (side base) is facing in and kinda backwards with their right hand under the middle and their left of the back of the foot/ankle. Most of the weight is born by the main and the side base is technically a spotter according to the USASF glossary. So you can lose the back spot and its still legal without adjusting anything.

The issue with hybrids is if your style is in the minority no matter how much it works for you any athletes that train at your gym that end up going to another (for whatever reason... move on to college, family moves, or want another gym) they are going to have to completely learn a new technique and will be behind. Same with someone moving into your gym. Taking someone mid season means they will have to learn a new style.

If we take tumbling, for example, there is 'one' correct technique. Gymnastics has standardized it for years and some gyms do a better job of teaching it than others. But, in theory, if two gyms teach technically correct back handsprings they an athlete can go from one gym to another and do the same skill the same way. (yes there are different ways to teach the correct technique... different drills and explanations to get to the same result, so we aren't talking about drills specifically or teaching style, but the technique itself).

This is a huge safety increase as well if we were basket and stunt the same.

 

[CGAcheer]

The issue with hybrids is if your style is in the minority no matter how much it works for you any athletes that train at your gym that end up going to another (for whatever reason... move on to college, family moves, or want another gym) they are going to have to completely learn a new technique and will be behind. Same with someone moving into your gym. Taking someone mid season means they will have to learn a new style.

I agree. No one so far has had a problem picking up our style so far, but we do teach the other kinds of grips to our Srs before they leave for college.

The main advantages to our grip are:
there is no change in grip between having a 4 person group and a 3 person group
The grip is the same for level 2 and 1.

With the grip you describe, how does it work in levels 2 and 1? is the "side" base able to get their left hand in on a prep level lib? What does your "main" do with their left hand in the below prep level level 1 lib?
for extended stunts who is holding the heel of the flyer? is the main holding a single base style grip or are their right fingers on the outside of the foot and their thumb on the inside with the side having the heel? Does the main slide their left hand in as it goes up?

 

[King]

I agree. No one so far has had a problem picking up our style so far, but we do teach the other kinds of grips to our Srs before they leave for college.

The main advantages to our grip are:
there is no change in grip between having a 4 person group and a 3 person group
The grip is the same for level 2 and 1.

With the grip you describe, how does it work in levels 2 and 1? is the "side" base able to get their left hand in on a prep level lib? What does your "main" do with their left hand in the below prep level level 1 lib?
for extended stunts who is holding the heel of the flyer? is the main holding a single base style grip or are their right fingers on the outside of the foot and their thumb on the inside with the side having the heel? Does the main slide their left hand in as it goes up?

Im not sure of your first statement or what you are asking?

Non extended one foot stunting is completely different than extended stunting. A hyrbrid in that instance might work but id honestly ask my wife. She works with it a ton and knows what is practical. A lot of low level stunting is holding in awkward positions because of shoulder placement and athletic ability of the athletes. Naming conventions for level 1 and 2 should be built off of level 3 - 6 for future clarity.

And one of my biggest complaints is the spotter rule in usasf when the side has to have an ankle or wrist of the base to be legal and safe. Its misleading and WAY unsafer.

How is it unsafer? Whenever you are lifting anything you want both arms locked out and lifting evenly through your whole body. Look at any weight lifter... when doing a shoulder press you lift the weight on a horizontal plane because you are strongest and the most balanced that way. Try pushing your max weight with one arm bent 4 inches evenly. Its hard, you can't push as much, and you have less balance.

When a side base has to either over extend their left arm to reach an ankle or bend their right arm to hold a toe they are not in their strongest position to lift.

And want further proof its not practical? In level 6 there is no silly loophole that requires a spot for extended stunts, so we all hold the way im describing.

Sorry about the rant, not directed at you, it just came out.

 

[CGAcheer]

So is your main holding coed style or both hands in the middle of the foot?

 

[CGAcheer]

Im not sure of your first statement or what you are asking?

Non extended one foot stunting is completely different than extended stunting. A hyrbrid in that instance might work but id honestly ask my wife. She works with it a ton and knows what is practical. A lot of low level stunting is holding in awkward positions because of shoulder placement and athletic ability of the athletes. Naming conventions for level 1 and 2 should be built off of level 3 - 6 for future clarity.

And one of my biggest complaints is the spotter rule in usasf when the side has to have an ankle or wrist of the base to be legal and safe. Its misleading and WAY unsafer.

How is it unsafer? Whenever you are lifting anything you want both arms locked out and lifting evenly through your whole body. Look at any weight lifter... when doing a shoulder press you lift the weight on a horizontal plane because you are strongest and the most balanced that way. Try pushing your max weight with one arm bent 4 inches evenly. Its hard, you can't push as much, and you have less balance.

When a side base has to either over extend their left arm to reach an ankle or bend their right arm to hold a toe they are not in their strongest position to lift.

And want further proof its not practical? In level 6 there is no silly loophole that requires a spot for extended stunts, so we all hold the way im describing.

Sorry about the rant, not directed at you, it just came out.

I think it is to differentiate what is a spotter and what is a base and their primary purposes. The purpose of the base is to hold the stunt up, the purpose of the spotter is to keep the flyer from getting hurt when she falls. The rule, in theory, ensures that at least the back hand of the spotter is free to catch a falling flyer.

I am interested in hearing about the actual hand placements on the foot using your grip. Does the side have heel and toe with the main having both hands in the middle? or does the main have heel and middle(more like a true coed style grip) and the side has toe and is supporting under the main's hand or holding the ankle?

 

[King]

So is your main holding coed style or both hands in the middle of the foot?

Talked to my wife about belly button stunts for level 1. They actually both hold a side style grip with one underneath the other. I was surprised to hear she didn't have a grip that resembles our level 3 - 6's, but it actually makes perfect sense. The same problem I mentioned with a spotter having a certain grip to be a spotter is they hold uneven. below your belly button it is smarter to have both bases in a position where both arms are straight. The backspot is holding the waist and the flyer will need some ankle control, but developing ankle control for flyers is a good thing anyway. Level 2 we are going to continue discussing it further. What should happen and what does is still mechanically not to my liking.

As for the spotter. First off moving your hand up or down an ankle so you can legally seperate yourself from a 'base' makes little to no sense to me. It is all done for this term 'spotter' which, honeslty, makes little to no sense. It is a patchwork of legalese to accomplish so many goals but creates so many problems.

My answer is you have three types of stunts: 1 base, 2 base, or 3 base stunts. All 1 person based stunts require a spotter (a spotter in my definition is someone not involved in the stunt who is within an arms length of the stunt to assist if needed). All 2 based stunts do not require a spotter. What happens when the spotter touches the 1 person based stunt? It becomes a 2 base stunts.

Then, only make 1 and 2 based stunts legal in level 4 and up.

When cradling 2 people, at least, are required to catch every cradle. You can also say there is at least one person responsibile for the head and shoulders. If a cradle is performed and no one became responsible for the head and shoulders it would be a legality deduction. NOW you have simpler rules that make more sense and people actually know what a spotter is and does. A spotter should be someone there to help in case a stunt falls not ACTIVELY holding something up.

 

[CGAcheer]

Talked to my wife about belly button stunts for level 1. They actually both hold a side style grip with one underneath the other. I was surprised to hear she didn't have a grip that resembles our level 3 - 6's, but it actually makes perfect sense. The same problem I mentioned with a spotter having a certain grip to be a spotter is they hold uneven. below your belly button it is smarter to have both bases in a position where both arms are straight. The backspot is holding the waist and the flyer will need some ankle control, but developing ankle control for flyers is a good thing anyway. Level 2 we are going to continue discussing it further. What should happen and what does is still mechanically not to my liking.

As for the spotter. First off moving your hand up or down an ankle so you can legally seperate yourself from a 'base' makes little to no sense to me. It is all done for this term 'spotter' which, honeslty, makes little to no sense. It is a patchwork of legalese to accomplish so many goals but creates so many problems.

My answer is you have three types of stunts: 1 base, 2 base, or 3 base stunts. All 1 person based stunts require a spotter (a spotter in my definition is someone not involved in the stunt who is within an arms length of the stunt to assist if needed). All 2 based stunts do not require a spotter. What happens when the spotter touches the 1 person based stunt? It becomes a 2 base stunts.

Then, only make 1 and 2 based stunts legal in level 4 and up.

When cradling 2 people, at least, are required to catch every cradle. You can also say there is at least one person responsibile for the head and shoulders. If a cradle is performed and no one became responsible for the head and shoulders it would be a legality deduction. NOW you have simpler rules that make more sense and people actually know what a spotter is and does. A spotter should be someone there to help in case a stunt falls not ACTIVELY holding something up.

That just eliminated single based knee stunts at level 1
and 2base/single based prep level libs at level 2, which are quite easy to pull off

the biggest problem I see with the current wording of the rules is in relation to cradles. 2 people can safely cradle a single based stunt but it takes 3 people to catch a basic prep cradle

Maybe something to the effect of (for levels 2-6) at least 2 people on the ground who are not involved in any other skills or choreography are responsible for the safety of flyers passing through or at (prep and above for 2, extended for 3-6) and all cradles require 2 catchers who are not involved with any other skills at the time of the cradle and have at least 1 arm protecting the shoulder neck area. Tosses require 3 catchers.

for level 1, at least 3 people on the ground who are not involved in any other skills or choreography are responsible for the safety of flyers passing through or at prep level and all cradles require 3 catchers who are not involved with any other skills at the time of the cradle and have at least 1 arm protecting the shoulder neck area.

 

[King]

That just eliminated single based knee stunts at level 1
and 2base/single based prep level libs at level 2, which are quite easy to pull off

the biggest problem I see with the current wording of the rules is in relation to cradles. 2 people can safely cradle a single based stunt but it takes 3 people to catch a basic prep cradle

Maybe something to the effect of (for levels 2-6) at least 2 people on the ground who are not involved in any other skills or choreography are responsible for the safety of flyers passing through or at (prep and above for 2, extended for 3-6) and all cradles require 2 catchers who are not involved with any other skills at the time of the cradle and have at least 1 arm protecting the shoulder neck area. Tosses require 3 catchers.

for level 1, at least 3 people on the ground who are not involved in any other skills or choreography are responsible for the safety of flyers passing through or at prep level and all cradles require 3 catchers who are not involved with any other skills at the time of the cradle and have at least 1 arm protecting the shoulder neck area.

The single based knee stunts and other stunts are easy to fix.

In level 1 all prep level stunts must be 3 based. All belly level stunts can be 1 based but require a spotter to cradle.

In level 2 all prep level stunts can be 2 based or 1 based with a spotter. All extended stunts are 3 based.

 

[CGAcheer]

The single based knee stunts and other stunts are easy to fix.

In level 1 all prep level stunts must be 3 based. All belly level stunts can be 1 based but require a spotter to cradle.

In level 2 all prep level stunts can be 2 based or 1 based with a spotter. All extended stunts are 3 based.

Sounds good, send it to @RulesGuy

 

[King]

Sounds good, send it to @RulesGuy

Would never pass. It would mean admitting that the way we do it now (and everything we have setup) is wrong. And plenty of people have fought long and hard to prove that a spotter on a stunt makes it safer with that bad grip.

 

[Deleted member 15]

Would never pass. It would mean admitting that the way we do it now (and everything we have setup) is wrong. And plenty of people have fought long and hard to prove that a spotter on a stunt makes it safer with that bad grip.

The argument I hear is the person with that grip isn't a base and therefore can be counted as a spotter. Safety has been left out of those conversations.

 

[King]

The argument I hear is the person with that grip isn't a base and therefore can be counted as a spotter. Safety has been left out of those conversations.

So we need to completely change our perspective. Backspot is a misnomer, IMO. Everyone working to hold up a stunt is a base. A spotter is someone to catch a stunt in the case it is falling (aka the spotters on the floor who work for the EPs). This would also help reward difficulty in stunting if we define it differently.

1 base is harder than 2 base stunt. The second someone touches a stunt it is no longer a 1 based stunt, and therefor worth less.

 

[King]

Back Base
Side Base
Main Base
Front Base (front bases are always optional)

 

[SharkDad]

Would never pass. It would mean admitting that the way we do it now (and everything we have setup) is wrong. And plenty of people have fought long and hard to prove that a spotter on a stunt makes it safer with that bad grip.

I have lots of respect for @RulesGuy Remember the sport has thus far taken rules that has been passed on by the industry and refined by the sport.

This effort is an attempt to take the current rules and clarify them based on the inputs of the experts WITHIN the sport with no regards to industry influence. The term "of the people, by the people" comes to mind.

I would hope the sport's governing body takes this effort under consideration.