All-Star The Key Ingredient.

[Level5Mom]

I agree, but athleticism has to be careful that you don't overly focus on it. If you had flyers that were all 115 do you think you would see a dramatic increase in hitting full out if you got all new flyers (with equal skill level) who were 85 or if you overly practiced and trained?

Are you asking if the 85 flyers are more athletic assuming they are at the same levels of stamina, strength, balance, coordination, etc. than the 115 flyers?

I think the odds of "saving" a stunt gets better the lighter the flyer is, so yes. But a 115 flyer can be as athletic (the way I defined it above) as an 85 flyer.

 

[King]

Are you asking if the 85 flyers are more athletic assuming they are at the same levels of stamina, strength, balance, coordination, etc. than the 115 flyers?

I think the odds of "saving" a stunt gets better the lighter the flyer is, so yes. But a 115 flyer can be as athletic (the way I defined it above) as an 85 flyer.

The odds of executing a stunt correctly go way up as well (to me when a flyer is smaller you can perform micro-saves in split seconds that are completely unnoticeable to anyone but the two people involved in a skill... yeah I have weird theories about cheer). Now that 85 flyer is 'probably' not going to jump well and have a double full, so you start making tradeoffs. Do we hit the building skills better with a smaller flyer but lose out on all those tumbling, jumping, and motion points.

 

[Level5Mom]

The odds of executing a stunt correctly go way up as well (to me when a flyer is smaller you can perform micro-saves in split seconds that are completely unnoticeable to anyone but the two people involved in a skill... yeah I have weird theories about cheer). Now that 85 flyer is 'probably' not going to jump well and have a double full, so you start making tradeoffs. Do we hit the building skills better with a smaller flyer but lose out on all those tumbling, jumping, and motion points.

Well my point is that you increase the strength, balance and coordination of that flyer to improve where she is lacking so that it is a non-issue, or at the very least..a lesser issue. I feel that athleticism and skill are related. Increase the athleticism of your team, and you will in turn be able to increase their skills.

 

[King]

Let's define athleticism in the course of this discussion because i might be thinking more of a narrow definition.

 

[12stepCheermom]

Disagree... Athletes always have an advantage but they need the head to go with it. The mental portion is just as important. An athlete can physically push their way to excellence but a weak mind can push itself to error.

Took the words out of my mouth. You can be athletic, conditioned and in shape...but if you balk, you don't think through your routine...your base just started dating your ex boyfriend....none of it matters. How many kids with "mental blocks" could be the next tumbling cheerlebrity if they just get their head straight and throw the skill their athletic body already knows how to do. How many teams have issues at 30seconds on the floor and completely fall apart for the next two minutes because they aren't mentally tough. How many see their standings after day one and don't have the mental fortitude to NOT give up?

I think athleticism is a requirement. This is an athletic endeavor, but you can be athletic and still never win a thing if your team, collectively, doesn't have more mental toughness than anything else.

 

[cheer4ever0522]

Took the words out of my mouth. You can be athletic, conditioned and in shape...but if you balk, you don't think through your routine...your base just started dating your ex boyfriend....none of it matters. How many kids with "mental blocks" could be the next tumbling cheerlebrity if they just get their head straight and throw the skill their athletic body already knows how to do. How many teams have issues at 30seconds on the floor and completely fall apart for the next two minutes because they aren't mentally tough. How many see their standings after day one and don't have the mental fortitude to NOT give up?

I think athleticism is a requirement. This is an athletic endeavor, but you can be athletic and still never win a thing if your team, collectively, doesn't have more mental toughness than anything else.

Did you just read my mind lol

 

[Level5Mom]

This is how I define it in relation to our discussion (I went and found this online....too lazy to think this late at night haha).

Athleticism can be defined as, "the ability to use a variety of motor abilities (strength, power, speed, agility, coordination, stability, balance, etc.) to effectively and efficiently perform a wide variety of sporting actions." Less complicated than it sounds, this definition simply means that being a great athlete requires possessing a variety of athletic qualities (motor abilities) and being able to use them effectively to perform sporting actions. Although specific "sporting actions" are different for each particular sport, most sports also have many common sporting actions required such as sprinting, changing direction, and jumping. The difference between an average athlete and a great athlete is the ability to perform these things effectively, efficiently, and consistently.

 

[Level5Mom]

Took the words out of my mouth. You can be athletic, conditioned and in shape...but if you balk, you don't think through your routine...your base just started dating your ex boyfriend....none of it matters. How many kids with "mental blocks" could be the next tumbling cheerlebrity if they just get their head straight and throw the skill their athletic body already knows how to do. How many teams have issues at 30seconds on the floor and completely fall apart for the next two minutes because they aren't mentally tough. How many see their standings after day one and don't have the mental fortitude to NOT give up?

I think athleticism is a requirement. This is an athletic endeavor, but you can be athletic and still never win a thing if your team, collectively, doesn't have more mental toughness than anything else.

I agree. I think mental toughness would be a great topic to explore. How does a coach prepare an athlete to be mentally tough? What methods do coaches use? Perhaps it needs its own thread?

 

[cupieqt]

This is a really good thread, I'd like to keep the discussion here instead of starting a new thread. I think physicality and mentality go hand in hand for success.
I work on my athletes mental game almost as much as their physical game. One of my best teams this year had a strong start and then had a bad competition (1 mistake abt 20 seconds in, then mistakes everywhere). After that we worked on their mental toughness a lot. We addressed it more than usual and it paid off. By their 4th competition you could see a huge difference in their performance. These kids are prime athletes and could out stunt and out tumble everyone they went up against but their mental game needed the most work and it wasn't evident until we started competing.

One of the ways I prepare my athletes mentally is talking to them about different scenarios that may happen. I prepare them for "what if's" and sometimes we practice them (like having the music cut out) so they're prepared at every turn.
These kids have to know that no matter how bad it seems to them on the floor it's a million times worse if they allow themselves to fall apart.
They have to know that, although we will compete again, they don't get the opportunity to try it again onstage THAT day.
We talk about focusing on each moment as it happens so they don't think about previous mistakes or worry about something coming up. If they can live in the moments as they're happening they execute much better.

 

[Anna-grace]

Tightness is the key in my eyes, i'd rather watch a tight level 2 routine that a messy level 6, when performed with energy clean routines are always the best.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

Took the words out of my mouth. You can be athletic, conditioned and in shape...but if you balk, you don't think through your routine...your base just started dating your ex boyfriend....none of it matters. How many kids with "mental blocks" could be the next tumbling cheerlebrity if they just get their head straight and throw the skill their athletic body already knows how to do. How many teams have issues at 30seconds on the floor and completely fall apart for the next two minutes because they aren't mentally tough. How many see their standings after day one and don't have the mental fortitude to NOT give up?

I think athleticism is a requirement. This is an athletic endeavor, but you can be athletic and still never win a thing if your team, collectively, doesn't have more mental toughness than anything else.

You can be mentally tough, say never balk, and do jumps that are a foot off the ground and never win. I get the point, but think you have to be athletic first and foremost. Again, at every level, all things being the same (that assumes the mental toughness to do the routine I suppose) in my experience the athletic team wins just about every time.

Reading score sheets down through the years I am convinced an athletic team scores higher from the judges across the board. For instance, a team than has beautiful jumps (a bit of a non glamorous skill that requires commitment to all the aspects of cheer athleticism without the wow factor say combination double passes get) will score higher in all areas even if the skills are slightly less difficult than they would if they were not athletic (someone said clean, and I think clean is the essence of athletic + practice). The opposite, a team that does harder skills but does not commit to being athletic, rarely scores as high as they should in all areas. I've seen it over and over.

 

[StarshipTrooper]

The odds of executing a stunt correctly go way up as well (to me when a flyer is smaller you can perform micro-saves in split seconds that are completely unnoticeable to anyone but the two people involved in a skill... yeah I have weird theories about cheer). Now that 85 flyer is 'probably' not going to jump well and have a double full, so you start making tradeoffs. Do we hit the building skills better with a smaller flyer but lose out on all those tumbling, jumping, and motion points.

Not weird at all. I know a flyer that went 8 years fllying on older teams as a small flyer until she got to a certain size she never fell for the very reason you discuss. I think you are dead on. But, I think in making a team, a coach would rather have a group of flyers who committed to strength, stamina, flexibility and practice (ie athleticism in my book + the constant need to practice) to allow them to fly about as consistently as a group of small flyers while getting all the benefits of having flyers that look and perform like they are in the same decade as the team they are on.

 

[12stepCheermom]

You can be mentally tough, say never balk, and do jumps that are a foot off the ground and never win. I get the point, but think you have to be athletic first and foremost. Again, at every level, all things being the same (that assumes the mental toughness to do the routine I suppose) in my experience the athletic team wins just about every time.

Reading score sheets down through the years I am convinced an athletic team scores higher from the judges across the board. For instance, a team than has beautiful jumps (a bit of a non glamorous skill that requires commitment to all the aspects of cheer athleticism without the wow factor say combination double passes get) will score higher in all areas even if the skills are slightly less difficult than they would if they were not athletic (someone said clean, and I think clean is the essence of athletic + practice). The opposite, a team that does harder skills but does not commit to being athletic, rarely scores as high as they should in all areas. I've seen it over and over.

I hear you. I'm not sure these things are mutually exclusive though. In thinking about the athletic ones, they're the kids who stretch at home in front of the tv, they never miss an optimal tumbling practice, they get there early and stay late because it's how they got athleticism to begin with. They eat salads and protein bars rather than cheese puffs and cake. They choose to throw the skills they're focused on during a walk through rather than marking it.

They're the same kids who are just as focused on the mat when it's game time. In thinking about it your truly athletic teams probably have that mental toughness as well. On the same note, the mentally tough committed kids will gain athleticism because they're so focused. I dont know that you can have one side in spades without the other.

 

[12stepCheermom]

This is a really good thread, I'd like to keep the discussion here instead of starting a new thread. I think physicality and mentality go hand in hand for success.
I work on my athletes mental game almost as much as their physical game. One of my best teams this year had a strong start and then had a bad competition (1 mistake abt 20 seconds in, then mistakes everywhere). After that we worked on their mental toughness a lot. We addressed it more than usual and it paid off. By their 4th competition you could see a huge difference in their performance. These kids are prime athletes and could out stunt and out tumble everyone they went up against but their mental game needed the most work and it wasn't evident until we started competing.

One of the ways I prepare my athletes mentally is talking to them about different scenarios that may happen. I prepare them for "what if's" and sometimes we practice them (like having the music cut out) so they're prepared at every turn.
These kids have to know that no matter how bad it seems to them on the floor it's a million times worse if they allow themselves to fall apart.
They have to know that, although we will compete again, they don't get the opportunity to try it again onstage THAT day.
We talk about focusing on each moment as it happens so they don't think about previous mistakes or worry about something coming up. If they can live in the moments as they're happening they execute much better.

This is a really good thread, I'd like to keep the discussion here instead of starting a new thread. I think physicality and mentality go hand in hand for success.
I work on my athletes mental game almost as much as their physical game. One of my best teams this year had a strong start and then had a bad competition (1 mistake abt 20 seconds in, then mistakes everywhere). After that we worked on their mental toughness a lot. We addressed it more than usual and it paid off. By their 4th competition you could see a huge difference in their performance. These kids are prime athletes and could out stunt and out tumble everyone they went up against but their mental game needed the most work and it wasn't evident until we started competing.

One of the ways I prepare my athletes mentally is talking to them about different scenarios that may happen. I prepare them for "what if's" and sometimes we practice them (like having the music cut out) so they're prepared at every turn.
These kids have to know that no matter how bad it seems to them on the floor it's a million times worse if they allow themselves to fall apart.
They have to know that, although we will compete again, they don't get the opportunity to try it again onstage THAT day.
We talk about focusing on each moment as it happens so they don't think about previous mistakes or worry about something coming up. If they can live in the moments as they're happening they execute much better.

That's a great idea. Cutting the music out....I'm a high school principal and the first thing I thought of was a fire and lockdown drill.sure you can't prepare kids for everything but I really don't think they'd lose their minds in a real fire (as long as its not IN their room i mean ) because they're so conditioned to walk out the door like lemmings. They definitely know what to do.

How do you work on getting them to not freak out when youre coming into day two a hairs breadth out of first place and Susie's group eats the mat right in front of you in the routine?

 

[StarshipTrooper]

I hear you. I'm not sure these things are mutually exclusive though. In thinking about the athletic ones, they're the kids who stretch at home in front of the tv, they never miss an optimal tumbling practice, they get there early and stay late because it's how they got athleticism to begin with. They eat salads and protein bars rather than cheese puffs and cake. They choose to throw the skills they're focused on during a walk through rather than marking it.

They're the same kids who are just as focused on the mat when it's game time. In thinking about it your truly athletic teams probably have that mental toughness as well. On the same note, the mentally tough committed kids will gain athleticism because they're so focused. I dont know that you can have one side in spades without the other.

I agree. You can see athleticism and judge it, mental toughness is more a cause than an effect.