All-Star Too Many Competitions

[Num1Stunta]

I have no idea. I'm probably not a good person to ask...because the thought of a few of these competition companies going out of business doesn't exactly sadden me. Have the competitions SPONSORED by private companies, not RUN by them. You know, like a "'real sport"...

Boy, that is EXACTLY what I mean from this whole post.... SHIMMY SHIMMY SHIMMY

 

[newcheerdad]

I have no idea. I'm probably not a good person to ask...because the thought of a few of these competition companies going out of business doesn't exactly sadden me. Have the competitions SPONSORED by private companies, not RUN by them. You know, like a "'real sport"...

I don't even think the fact that they run these events is the problem. It's the fact that the criteria is so vague that it's hard to make an educated decision about the quality of the event. This is another place where the USASF needs to be involved more.

 

[kristenthegreat]

..Couldn't these companies still each have their own 'nationals' with their own regionals and other qualifying events? Yes, it wouldn't be quite as 'legitimate' as we're hoping for, but it's a start 'til we can argue for more. You can still have NCA, UCA, Cheersport, Indy etc. with all their 'nationals' but rename all their other competitions to regionals and have some of them qualifier-events to get to their nationals.

It would be 'UCA National Champion' and 'NCA Nationals Champion' and UCA Regional Champion or Local Champion.

 

[Just-a-Mom]

..Couldn't these companies still each have their own 'nationals' with their own regionals and other qualifying events? Yes, it wouldn't be quite as 'legitimate' as we're hoping for, but it's a start 'til we can argue for more. You can still have NCA, UCA, Cheersport, Indy etc. with all their 'nationals' but rename all their other competitions to regionals and have some of them qualifier-events to get to their nationals.

It would be 'UCA National Champion' and 'NCA Nationals Champion' and UCA Regional Champion or Local Champion.

This would be a VAST improvement over what we have now. I would take this (for now...). At least the national titles would actually be national titles. And this would be something actually do-able. I realize my solution couldn't happen (at least not quickly)

ETA: I think what I really hate is that high school varisty teams can enter these comps too. I reeeeeeeally don't think a high school team should be able to call themselves National Champions unless they actually won "the real Nationals"--I think it's UCA? The one that's always been around and is on ESPN.

 

[CGAcheer]

Its not hard to find out about the quality or the projected numbers of an event. If you call or email you can usually get the previous year's results or schedule or at least find out the number of teams in attendance. You can call past attendees to find out about how well it was ran. You can find videos on youtube to see the production level of the event.

but you never really know if there are going to be a lot of teams in your specific division until the current year's schedule is posted

 

[tumbleyoda]

I have no idea. I'm probably not a good person to ask...because the thought of a few of these competition companies going out of business doesn't exactly sadden me. Have the competitions SPONSORED by private companies, not RUN by them. You know, like a "'real sport"...

So are we saying that the elimination of some competition companies (which and under what criteria) and some gyms (which and what criteria) is what is necessary for cheer to be run like a real sport? I think there are some other ways to accomplish the same goal.

How would sponsoring them differ in your mind from running them? They invest money but nothing else? Usually the hands that put the money in.......well.....I am just asking - not shooting the idea or thought down.

 

[tumbleyoda]

Under t

..Couldn't these companies still each have their own 'nationals' with their own regionals and other qualifying events? Yes, it wouldn't be quite as 'legitimate' as we're hoping for, but it's a start 'til we can argue for more. You can still have NCA, UCA, Cheersport, Indy etc. with all their 'nationals' but rename all their other competitions to regionals and have some of them qualifier-events to get to their nationals.

It would be 'UCA National Champion' and 'NCA Nationals Champion' and UCA Regional Champion or Local Champion.

Under the way things are currently set up, this would be the quickest and easiest fix.

 

[CHEERFEVER]

I am SO glad someone brought this up! I could go on for hours but really something needs to change. O have about 8 "National Champion" jackets in my closet all from different competitions some of which people from different states arent even there. It definitely makes all star cheer look less legitimate because when I say yeah I won Nationals I was against 3 teams... heck everyone's a National Champ!!

 

[Just-a-Mom]

So are we saying that the elimination of some competition companies (which and under what criteria) and some gyms (which and what criteria) is what is necessary for cheer to be run like a real sport? I think there are some other ways to accomplish the same goal.

How would sponsoring them differ in your mind from running them? They invest money but nothing else? Usually the hands that put the money in.......well.....I am just asking - not shooting the idea or thought down.

Oh I think it's too late now. It just should have been done different from the beginning. But to answer your question...yes. Invest money and nothing else. That's what sponsoring is. You pay for some event, put your name all over everything, and let someone else do the work. Like "The USASF AllStar Cheer Midwest Regional Championships, sponsored by Nfinity..." but then the USASF actually runs the event. Then the rules would be the same for every competition, and the judges would all be looking at the same scoresheet. Then everyone at a National event or Worlds event would get there by the same means. But like I said, too late now.

Oh, and to answer your other question: Which ones and what criteria? I would say the same as I say for anything else in life: The ones who aren't good at running their business.

And as to everyone saying people can't afford to get to Nationals, they afford it in every other sport. How? They get sponsorships to pay for their trip. No other sport I've ever heard of has 97 different National Championships every year because people can't afford to get to one big one.

***OK guys...I'm going to need my own sponsor to pay my bills if I don't get off this board!

So I must run...

 

[nccheerdad]

From what I have seen two things generally happen. One is contracts on dates with certain venues are already signed so there is no changing the date even if another company has an event the same day and in the same general area. Unless you do multiple events at the same location you are usually locked in with very little wiggle room on dates. Especially if you are using an arena type facility. The earlier the contract is signed the better your cost savings is with that facility. If you plan it right it dont take many teams at all to break even or make a profit if everyone pays and no major discounts are given. It stinks for the sporting side of it, but businesses are generally trying to make money first. All a small event really needs is one to three strong programs with several teams each and they can break even. Every other team plus the gate is straight profit. Barring that scenario several small programs with 1 - 2 teams each works as well. So while wanting more competition is the desire of many it is not always necessary to run an event and make a profit.

The other is companies know that they are going head to head many times with other competition companies. Just like gyms research other gyms for competitions, competition companies do the same thing. They see who is scheduled to go to events, what the other company is charging and may even *gasp* offer them a discount to switch events. To them it is a competition as well to see who will pull the most teams/programs. If one company is percived as stronger, bigger, better than the other it usually helps them on the buisness side of the equation. Maybe the smaller company blinks and changes location or maybe they can be bought out.

I have seen the same thing. It definitely isn't a quick or easy fix to benefit the "sporting" side of it all. From a business side, it is fascinating.

 

[newcheerdad]

Its not hard to find out about the quality or the projected numbers of an event. If you call or email you can usually get the previous year's results or schedule or at least find out the number of teams in attendance. You can call past attendees to find out about how well it was ran. You can find videos on youtube to see the production level of the event.

Why should it involve that level of effort? Shouldn't I feel comfortable that a "national" event as sanctioned by the USASF will have adequate facilities and attendance? I don't have a problem with there being multiple national events, but when these companies promote dozens of events as "nationals" it dilutes the term.

 

[Ashley]

Oh I think it's too late now. It just should have been done different from the beginning. But to answer your question...yes. Invest money and nothing else. That's what sponsoring is. You pay for some event, put your name all over everything, and let someone else do the work. Like "The USASF AllStar Cheer Midwest Regional Championships, sponsored by Nfinity..." but then the USASF actually runs the event. Then the rules would be the same for every competition, and the judges would all be looking at the same scoresheet. Then everyone at a National event or Worlds event would get there by the same means. But like I said, too late now.

Oh, and to answer your other question: Which ones and what criteria? I would say the same as I say for anything else in life: The ones who aren't good at running their business.

And as to everyone saying people can't afford to get to Nationals, they afford it in every other sport. How? They get sponsorships to pay for their trip. No other sport I've ever heard of has 97 different National Championships every year because people can't afford to get to one big one.

***OK guys...I'm going to need my own sponsor to pay my bills if I don't get off this board! So I must run...

I think this was one of the biggest issues with the whole "is college cheerleading a sport?" court case from this summer. All of these people who knew nothing about the sport were now like "So the company the makes the rules (Varsity) is the same company that holds camps, sells uniforms, and hosts the competitions? That's not right."

 

[UCheerMama]

And don't get me started on Varsity....

 

[Just-a-Mom]

I think this was one of the biggest issues with the whole "is college cheerleading a sport?" court case from this summer. All of these people who knew nothing about the sport were now like "So the company the makes the rules (Varsity) is the same company that holds camps, sells uniforms, and hosts the competitions? That's not right."

There is a world of difference between sponsoring and hosting an event. ALL major sporting events have sponsors. But when was the last time you saw a high school basketball team win a state championship HOSTED by Reebok? Sponsorship helps the business because they get free advertising--and helps the event because a profitable company pays for the high cost, while a different, non-profit-gaining group takes care of fairness and regulations.

I'm just going to say it...so I'm prepared for the blasting I'm going to get: If you're an event producer, the way you make money is by having a LOT of athletes sign up for your competition. Not a lot of gyms, not a lot of teams. A lot of athletes--since that's how the current system works. We pay by athlete, not gym or team. Soooooo...if you have 15 gyms come to your competition (wouldn't that be nice?

) and one brings 52 kids and one brings 652 kids...a good business decision would be to have that GIANT gym take home some trophies, no? Because you sure want that 652-kid gym coming back next year. Suddenly we have a not-so-fair judging process...and THIS is why people say this isn't a sport. People who determine results should not be profitting from a competition. So now take another look at our biggest "National" events--they are FILLED with huge, big name gyms. Not saying AT ALL that those gyms aren't talented, awesome, etc., but doesn't it speak volumes for our sport when the very people profitting the MOST from the number of people coming to their competitions are also the same people deciding who gets the bids? Those decisions should be made by one group of people who don't stand to gain anything by who they pick as winners.

But I digress...back to topic. YES, there are too many competitions...

 

[tumbleyoda]

Oh I think it's too late now. It just should have been done different from the beginning. But to answer your question...yes. Invest money and nothing else. That's what sponsoring is. You pay for some event, put your name all over everything, and let someone else do the work. Like "The USASF AllStar Cheer Midwest Regional Championships, sponsored by Nfinity..." but then the USASF actually runs the event. Then the rules would be the same for every competition, and the judges would all be looking at the same scoresheet. Then everyone at a National event or Worlds event would get there by the same means. But like I said, too late now.

Oh, and to answer your other question: Which ones and what criteria? I would say the same as I say for anything else in life: The ones who aren't good at running their business.

And as to everyone saying people can't afford to get to Nationals, they afford it in every other sport. How? They get sponsorships to pay for their trip. No other sport I've ever heard of has 97 different National Championships every year because people can't afford to get to one big one.

***OK guys...I'm going to need my own sponsor to pay my bills if I don't get off this board! So I must run...

Based on reading these message boards the past 5 years I think we are coming around the bend on the issue. Things that were hotly debated as being sour grapes years ago are now seen as legitimate issues. There has been a definite shift towards enacting many things that IMO are for the true betterment of the sport for every gym, athlete, parent, coach and EP. Eventually this issue will resolve itself but I believe it starts with USASF.

If USASF sets the criteria, then all an EP can do is follow it if they desire USASF sanction or not to follow it. EP's could go into a yearly rotating pool for the local, regional and state event. This would not preclude them from having their own competitions and they could theoretically use their events to feed into the USASF event. Gyms could choose events that are USASF sanctioned or not. If they chose not to attend the USASF event there would still be competitions for them to attend - but those would be EP specific. This would allow them to have whatever events they desire and have customers for.

This might mean there would be a second group to start something similar to the USASF. Similar to what happened with USGF (now USAG) and USAIGC way back when. I dont think that would be a bad thing but it is a possibility that would still dilute competition which seems to be the central thrust of this thread. Also gyms could choose not to attend competitions - which may still happen even if it is the only competition in an area on a particular day. We have to remember that no matter the reason we can not force anyone to attend any particular competition. Even if we put a system in place like gymnastics which makes you qualify at sanctioned events to move on to the next level gyms still may not choose to do so.