All-Star True Level 5 Stunts - Are We Living A Lie?

[4me2Kno]

Had some deep thoughts about level 5 stunting and had previously posted this on another thread, but wanted to see other peoples opinions...

First, Is there anyone on here who has been on a World's Judging panel that could give their perspective on stunt scoring expectations... On many of the competition companies scoring scales out there, it can be pretty cut and dry what is needed to be done to score in range and what will put a team in the low/middle/high areas of that range...

I have some thoughts in general about TRUE LEVEL 5 STUNTS by definition and also how they would relate to a worlds scoresheet...

From the Stunting Worlds Scoresheet

Difficulty (0-25 points)

0-6 points L4 and under stunt skills or limited number of stunts performed in routine.
Multi-based stunts with excessive spotters. Top person with single position in
air. Basic, simple load-in, L3 or under dismount and transitional skills.

6-13 points L5 stunt skills. Multi-based stunts with excessive spotters. Basic load-in, L4
dismount and transitional skills.

13-19 points L5 stunt skills. Multi-based with limited spotters. Advanced load-in, L4/L5
dismount and transitional skills.

19-25 points L5 Multi-based stunt skills with multiple body positions while in the air. Stunts
with minimum required spotters. Elite load-in, L5 dismount and transitional skills.

First: Define Basic/Advanced/Elite Load in at worlds level...??? I would expect advanced/elite to be level 5 unique since this is WORLDS, right?

Full Ups/Switch Ups/Tick Tocks - most variations are level 4 legal, are these still classified as advanced/elite load ins or transitions for worlds which supposed to be level 5, and if so, why are level 4 legal stunts considered in the advanced/elite area for level 5? If all these tick tock/switch up/full up to 1.5 up variations are level 4 legal, they shouldn't really count as L5 transitional skills should they, which is what the 19-25 range notes...

Per the level 4 guidelines 1.5 twisting transitions are legal level 4... So if 1.5 ups to all body positions even the most difficult ones, switch ups, tick tocks (low to high/high to high) are all level 4 legal why would these put you in the top at WORLDS range if level 4 legal? I myself think that many of these skills as set up today should not be level 4 and are ELITE, but as the rules stand this year, there they are just level 4 elements...

* True level 5 stunt transitions/etc by rule and definition under my understanding are: (which are all illegal below level 5):

- 1 and 3/4 to double twisting transitions - varying difficulty if caught in cradle/sponge/prep/extended 2 leg/extended 1 leg
- double downs obviously or 2 and 1/4 twist downs - varying difficulty based on body position executed from
- release moves over extended arm level to 18 inches above extended arm level (which should include anything from a glorified released show and go in the release range below 18 inches and also include released ball up and twist up ball up variations)
- Downward inversions originating from extended level/above prep level (waterfalls/death dives/pancakes...) may be a transition or a dismount...
- Helicopter tosses (why, I don't know but can only be done in level 5)

I've heard much lately about teams throwing and not throwing level 5 stunt sequences and scratch my head a little...

So

Team A does:

Switch up Right Heal Stretch - Level 4 Legal
Power Press Tick Tock to Left High Stretch - Level 4 Legal
High to High Tick tock To Right Stretch, bow - Level 4 Legal
Sponge
1 and 1/4 up - Level 4 Legal
Scorp, Scale, Aerobesque
Double Down - Level 5

Pretty legit sounding overall stunt, but Amazingly the only level 5 unique element is the double down... All other elements level 4 legal. Tally = 4 level 4 elements 1 level 5.

Team B does:

Sponge toss release move (in extended to 18 inches above extended arm Level) back to sponge - Legal only at level 5
Up to Heal Stretch, Bow
Waterfall flip down inversion from extended level to cradle - Legal only at level 5
Flatback
Helicopter toss to cradle - Legal only at level 5
Sponge
Ball Up to Extension - released in level 5 height range
Scorp, Scale, aerobesque
Double Down - Level 5 Legal

Tally = 5 level 5 elements

Now looking alone at stunt A vs B many would say the first (A) is more impressive (I think so too), but the only level 5 skill in Stunt (A) is the double down... In (B) the simple sponge toss to sponge is easy, but level 5, the waterfall roll down is pretty easy, but level 5, the helicopter toss, pretty easy but only legal at level 5, a ball up to extension is pretty easy but if executed and released above extended arm level under 18 inches is only legal at level 5...

So looking at our Level 5 vs Level 4 stunting rules, why should stunt A score better with 1 level 5 unique skill vs 5 in stunt B? Stunt A the only level 5 unique element is the double down - Why would its load ins qualify as advanced or even elite if they are level 4 legal, how would the transitions in stunt A qualify as L5 if they are truely level 4, per our stunt rules why would these level 4 elements put a stunt in the 19-25 range? And would/should stunt B with its level multiple level 5 elements and body positions qualify in the 19-25 range?

I bet there are a lot of teams at level 5 that have sequences filled with actual level 4 skills as described above, these stunts are perceived to be true level 5 cause everyone does them, but the reality is different...

Thoughts?

 

[fierceBOWlove]

You make some very good points...

 

[Num1Stunta]

I've been saying this forever... kind of an illogical setup in a lot of ways

 

[imrichhowboutu]

I'm not a fan of these. Everyone in the senior divisions with a bid to worlds should be in the top range... But getting into the top range only requires a double down and some sort of elite load in like a tick tock or full up immediate.
There should be a wider top range to allow for everything from Tick tocks to true level 5 stunts.

 

[Num1Stunta]

Enter my age-old argument that REWINDS should be added to the Level 5 rubric...

 

[emmabug95]

I never even thought of it this way... that most of the stunts these Worlds teams do are level 4 legal! Maybe it's the way they preform it? For instance, Senior Elite does maybe.. four tick tocks in one stunt sequence? It's level 4 legal, but it's much higher difficulty; and execution (obviously) counts too

 

[4me2Kno]

I never even thought of it this way... that most of the stunts these Worlds teams do are level 4 legal! Maybe it's the way they preform it? For instance, Senior Elite does maybe.. four tick tocks in one stunt sequence? It's level 4 legal, but it's much higher difficulty; and execution (obviously) counts too

I don't know, take a look at other scoresheet categories, like tumbling, 5 awesome layouts do not add up to equal 1 full... 3 standing backs do not make a jump to back... Really well executes kick fulls done 5 different times by all stunt group are not worth the same as 1 sequence of kick doubles... 4 tic tocks are still 4 lv 4 skills...

Many scoresheets are set up for example if you do lv 4 skills u max out in the 8-9 range, doesn't matter how many or how well executed those lv 4 skills are, you don't get into the 9-10 range unless the skills are level 5... Should Doing a majority of level 4 legal stunt elements by definition in a sequence get you level 5 scores and credit? If that happened in any other category on the scoresheet people would flip out!!!

 

[Num1Stunta]

I just think that we need to be more specific about certain things, and I also think there needs to be a separate addendum to each level to include coed stunting.

Things I think should change or be clarified:

Coed (meaning unassisted... Just an example)
Level 1- Chairs and Walk up to hands
Level 2- Toss hands
Level 3- Toss extensions, single down
Level 4- Toss to one legs, single down
Level 5- Any other entry to one leg plus a double down

AllGirl-
Level 1 and 2- no release moves
Level 3- release moves to prep level
Level 4- release moves to extended 2 feet (in other words, no tick tocks)
Level 5- release moves to one leg (tick tocks, full up stretches, etc)

Among others lol...

 

[4me2Kno]

I just think that we need to be more specific about certain things, and I also think there needs to be a separate addendum to each level to include coed stunting.

Things I think should change or be clarified:

Coed (meaning unassisted... Just an example)
Level 1- Chairs and Walk up to hands
Level 2- Toss hands
Level 3- Toss extensions, single down
Level 4- Toss to one legs, single down
Level 5- Any other entry to one leg plus a double down

AllGirl-
Level 1 and 2- no release moves
Level 3- release moves to prep level
Level 4- release moves to extended 2 feet (in other words, no tick tocks)
Level 5- release moves to one leg (tick tocks, full up stretches, etc)

Among others lol...

Definitely think there should be some realignment of skills in the future, and I like the idea of specific leveling of coed style, but competitions have to value coed in some specific way to entice teams to do them...

 

[Num1Stunta]

Definitely think there should be some realignment of skills in the future, and I like the idea of specific leveling of coed style, but competitions have to value coed in some specific way to entice teams to do them...

I really think it should be as easy as- any senior level team with one or may boys on it has to showcase it. I have mixed feelings about making it mandatory for juniors, because boys just hit their growth spurt a little later than girls. But, it may be nice to award some extra points for it, so they can get in the habit of doing coed stunts in preparation for moving onto seniors.

 

[Num1Stunta]

I really think it should be as easy as- any senior level team with one or may boys on it has to showcase it. I have mixed feelings about making it mandatory for juniors, because boys just hit their growth spurt a little later than girls. But, it may be nice to award some extra points for it, so they can get in the habit of doing coed stunts in preparation for moving onto seniors.

meant to say one or MORE boys... I wish you could edit posts on here without a time limit.... @kingston can you get on that?

 

[John Butler]

You lost me at "deep thoughts"... LOL... just kidding... very insightful... it took me a few times reading through to understand, but I get the feeling this thread is meant for coaches, not parents... LOLOL!!!

 

[4me2Kno]

You lost me at "deep thoughts"... LOL... just kidding... very insightful... it took me a few times reading through to understand, but I get the feeling this thread is meant for coaches, not parents... LOLOL!!!

Yea, this is a pretty technical aspect of the game, but I get parents asking me often about skills and what makes this more difficult than that, and the way some of this stunt stuff is set up can actually get us coaches scratching our heads too!

 

[4me2Kno]

I really think it should be as easy as- any senior level team with one or may boys on it has to showcase it. I have mixed feelings about making it mandatory for juniors, because boys just hit their growth spurt a little later than girls. But, it may be nice to award some extra points for it, so they can get in the habit of doing coed stunts in preparation for moving onto seniors.

Rewarding Coed Teams for doing Coed Style stunts should and probably has been a thread all by itself... I like how worlds has at least added that aspect... And I'm positive we will see more of it at worlds. Its a chicken and the egg type thing... If you don't have it as a part of the scoresheet, no matter how much coed teams are "encouraged" to do coed style stunts, unless it is something tangibly scored, there is no incentive to do it in routines...

 

[John Butler]

Yea, this is a pretty technical aspect of the game, but I get parents asking me often about skills and what makes this more difficult than that, and the way some of this stunt stuff is set up can actually get us coaches scratching our heads too!

I can totally see that! You know, the toughest part is appearance vs. difficulty for me. It's the age old arguement in cheer. If one team does stunts that are less difficult, but stick all of them, and another team does more difficult stunts, but one comes down or misses a body position, which team should win?

I've always thought, since cheer is about performance, that difficulty should matter less than cleanliness. But obviously that isn't the case. For example, two years ago TG Unlimited took 2nd place at Worlds. Why, because on day 2 a stunt came down. Didn't matter that in EVERY aspect of the routine it was more difficult than the team that won 1st, because at the end of the day, that team was more clean on Day 2 and thus won first place. I have always had a hard time with that loss, because I felt that TG's routine was simply better and more difficult that year than anyone in the field, but in the end... cleanliness won out.