All-Star True Level 5 Stunts - Are We Living A Lie?

[Rudags]

I think level 4's should be limited at switch ups and Lib to Lib Tick Tocks. Level 5's can be body positions to body positions. Would also help build level 4 flyers to be level 5 is everyone did lib to libs.

Also level 4 should be full up to two feet. Level 5 should be full and a quarter, full up immediate one leg, 1.5 up, etc. (I know level 4 is changing next year to no 1.5 ups)

 

[4me2Kno]

As far as difficulty vs cleanliness, different competition companies reward each aspect in different ways... Difficulty may win out at one comp and cleanliness in another... Which is why you hear a lot of people wanting to go towards a standardized scoresheet and judging process...

My main issue here is more at the root of how a lot of our stunts are set up by definition and how they are actually perceived. Many of the so called ELITE stunts being done by top teams that score really awesome are level 4 legal stunts, they are perceived as the most difficult stunts but actually not even level 5.

PS - I love top gun, felt they had the most difficult routine that year too, overkill of difficulty in many areas, which is to say once they earned their top marks/maxed out there is no extra credit... The term "More Difficult" is relative... If Top Gun and Cali both had killer difficulty stunts that maxed out at 25 out of 25, one team had one fall, the clean team has an advantage. In tumbling, no one had more tumbling than TG, they must have gotten full marks for tumbling, but Cali too might have had enough tumbling to max out and get the top maxed out value. Even though top gun had more tumbling they cant break the bank on the amount of points available. Cali too had loads of difficulty, and when you get that high in skill and difficulty - the cleaner team will win.

The real winner is everyone in the milkhouse that gets to see those performances Can't wait for this years worlds!

 

[John Butler]

The real winner is everyone in the milkhouse that gets to see those performances Can't wait for this years worlds!

To this day, everytime I watch all 16 guys cross the floor at the same time in the tumbling pass I get the chills!

But I think it's safe to say... no matter how much more difficult a team has in their stunting, a team that drops will never win over a team that doesn't.

 

[4me2Kno]

So, which of the two stunts should score better in difficulty at worlds In your opinions? Why?

Team A does:

Switch up Right Heal Stretch - Level 4 Legal
Power Press Tick Tock to Left High Stretch - Level 4 Legal
High to High Tick tock To Right Stretch, bow - Level 4 Legal
Sponge
1 and 1/4 up - Level 4 Legal
Scorp, Scale, Aerobesque
Double Down - Level 5

Pretty legit sounding overall stunt, but Amazingly the only level 5 unique element is the double down... All other elements level 4 legal. Tally = 4 level 4 elements 1 level 5.

Team B does:

Sponge toss release move (in extended to 18 inches above extended arm Level) back to sponge - Legal only at level 5
Up to Heal Stretch, Bow
Waterfall flip down inversion from extended level to cradle - Legal only at level 5
Flatback
Helicopter toss to cradle - Legal only at level 5
Sponge
Ball Up to Extension - released in level 5 height range
Scorp, Scale, aerobesque
Double Down - Level 5 Legal

Tally = 5 level 5 elements

 

[KB_Legend]

Well, a little birdie told me that next year the level 4 stunting rules will be more restricted to allow that separation and create some more level 5 stunting elements that people can actually do...

So I'm thinking next year 1.25/1.5 ups and major tic tocks WILL be level 5 specific and solve this problem...

Also to the previous poster CEA did win last year with a dropped stunt, in the words of The Beibs "never say never"

 

[Deleted member 15]

I'd guess 1.25 and tick tocks variations starting from a lib will remain Level 4 if changes are made.

 

[KB_Legend]

Well hopefully we will know all the 2011-2012 rules soon and won't have to speculate!

 

[Deleted member 15]

Well hopefully we will know all the 2011-2012 rules soon and won't have to speculate!

Amen.

 

[liamusc]

actually ... Cheer Extreme Senior Elite Dropped in their 2010 worlds routine.. WC didnt but Senior ELite won if i am correct anyway i may be wrong!

 

[ztaprincess]

I replied in the other thread where this was posted but I will put it in here too since some might only look here to read about it. I had never realized how many teams who are level 4 have stunts that are nothing but level 4 (except the double down).

I would think that if a team (A) with everything that is level 5 went to a competition and competed against a team (B)that had all level 4 elements but the double down that if team B beat team A (stunt score wise) they would have a reason to go to the EP and have their stunt rescored by pointing out the points made in the first post. You have teams that have their routines rescored all the time so what is stopping a team that gets outscored by a team who has level 4 stunts from going to the EP and having them rescore the stunts because it is clear cut and in the rules what is level 4 and level 5? Technically a level 4 stunt should NOT outscore a level 5 stunt just like a team throwing a bunch of layouts should not outscore a team with fulls if they are in the same division.

 

[pailum520]

Enter my age-old argument that REWINDS should be added to the Level 5 rubric...

Coed Elite at the beginning of the season. We just made them minimally braced for legality.

 

[rvnblue]

Well, a little birdie told me that next year the level 4 stunting rules will be more restricted to allow that separation and create some more level 5 stunting elements that people can actually do...

So I'm thinking next year 1.25/1.5 ups and major tic tocks WILL be level 5 specific and solve this problem...

"

I think this would cause way too many problems! Too many teams maxing out stunting and nothing being rewarded to teams doing actual level 5 entries as they are deemed legal now.

 

[socratesofcheer]

@4me2Kno

Without quoting your entire post I think you are mis-interpreting the score sheet.
19-25 points L5 Multi-based stunt skills with multiple body positions while in the air. Stunts
with minimum required spotters. Elite load-in, L5 dismount and transitional skills.

The way I interpret is; there needs to an:
ELITE load in (just bc its legal at lvl 4 doesn't mean its not elite)
L5 Dismount (double down)
and Transitional skills (tick tocks, full ups etc)

Compare it to a tumbling pass:
Punch Front thru to Round off HS whip whip Layout step-out (legal in level 4)
Punch Front thru to Round off HS whip whip Full (legal only in level 5)

In my opinion both are elite. If the full is what separates the elite-ness then the same could be said for the double down.

 

[4me2Kno]

@4me2Kno

Without quoting your entire post I think you are mis-interpreting the score sheet.
19-25 points L5 Multi-based stunt skills with multiple body positions while in the air. Stunts
with minimum required spotters. Elite load-in, L5 dismount and transitional skills.

The way I interpret is; there needs to an:
ELITE load in (just bc its legal at lvl 4 doesn't mean its not elite)
L5 Dismount (double down)
and Transitional skills (tick tocks, full ups etc)

Compare it to a tumbling pass:
Punch Front thru to Round off HS whip whip Layout step-out (legal in level 4)
Punch Front thru to Round off HS whip whip Full (legal only in level 5)

In my opinion both are elite. If the full is what separates the elite-ness then the same could be said for the double down.

First off, I respect your opinion, but I really don't think anyone is mis-interpreting the scoresheet, its not specific enough. I think the scoresheet and its brief explanations of the point ranges is too vague and CAN be interpreted in different ways, however, I would think the interpretation should be relevant for the event we are discussing. This is WORLDS, an invitation only event not just for level 5 but the best of the best senior level 5 teams. And this interpretation is for the TOP scoring range at the most prestigious level 5 competition.

19-25 points L5 Multi-based stunt skills with multiple body positions while in the air. Stunts
with minimum required spotters. Elite load-in, L5 dismount and transitional skills.

The first thing it says is: L5 Multi-based stunt skills. L5 stunt skills. Not level 4. Level 5 stunt skills, not just the dismount.


ELITE Load in - I agree that there is a LACK of explanation on what an ELITE level load in is or even what a basic/advanced load in is on the scoresheet info, I think there should be some definition so it isn't left up to question/interpretation... But come on this is WORLDS, consider the event we are discussing, the biggest and best competition out there for true level 5. I would have a hard time believing that an ELITE load in at the highest range of level 5 competition should/would include skills that are level 4 or lower?!?! You tell me when you think of WORLDS, and an ELITE skill to be performed there, doesn't a level 4 skill by definition seem inappropriate? But I do agree stating ELITE load in it is possible to interpret it many ways... I just would expect ELITE to mean level 5 since this is WORLDS.

If a 1.5 up to heal stretch is a legal level 4 skill, I would define that as an ELITE load in at level 4. Well if it is an ELITE load in legal at level 4, I would think an ELITE load in at level 5, which is one level up from 4, to be something more difficult, or bare minimum a level 5 skill. Just doesn't sound right to me - ELITE worlds load in = lv 4 skill?????

I took the Line: L5 dismount and transitional skills - to mean L5 dismount and L5 transitional skills
If you looked at just having "Transitional skills" with a double down dismount then you could do any other transitional skills: half ups, full twist to sponge, log rolls, etc they are all "transitional skills" too.... Again, this is worlds, I would think this TOP range of the scoresheet would and should imply true level 5 transitions, especially when the scoring range below it notes L4/L5 dismount and transitional skills... Again, the first line in this is: L5 multi-based stunt skills - well there needs to be actual L5 stunt skills then and not just the double down...

Under your interpretation (which I respect your opinion): to score in the top range at worlds you need to do an elite load in, which no one knows the definition of what it is, but could be a level 4 skill, hmmm...?, level 4 transitions (tick tocks, full ups etc), and end in a double down (Possibly only level 5 skill in sequence) and still score in the TOP range at WORLDS...?

I agree that both tumbling passes are ELITE, the one ending in a layout is an ELITE level 4 pass and should get NO level 5 credit. The one ending in a full is an ELITE level 5 pass... A full team throwing that elite level 4 pass should not get them into a level 5 scoring range... But since we are talking about stunts, just adding a double down to a stunt shouldn't get you into the top range for a level 5 stunt sequence at WORLDS... There should be other L5 elements, not L4.

I definitely think that certain skills need to be realigned by level, also that the worlds descriptions for scoresheets need to be a little more explanatory, which I don't think would limit creativity like it notes in the scoresheet packet. Other competition companies are very explanatory in their explanations of routine element requirements for scoring ranges and it hasn't led to less creative routines...

 

[kjstepone]

I think the board need a "simmer down" button.