All-Star Too Many Boys On The Floor

[Rusty]

I still do not understand how their pyramids would have given them a high enough score over Gym Tyme (there is only so many points you can get) that they received deductions per extra athlete AND had illegal elements to their routine and still tied? Sorry but until the scores and breakdowns are posted this will NEVER make sense. They had amazing pyramids, but you can only score so high in that section of the scoresheet and there is no way their tumbling was scored as high as GT and personally I dontt see how theirs stunts can be as high either. On top of that they were given deductions for extra athletes, how many points was that? I believe after their Nations Cup on Sunday morning they were only ahead of Gym Tyme by 5 or 6 points. If they had LEGALITY deductions on top of deductions per athlete there really should not be a way that they still tied with Gym Tyme, who hit their routine better in Finals.

The extra boy thing still bothers me, but there isn't much I can do about that since it was one big mess up, or at least that is what they say. I still though do not understand why they waited until warm ups to remove athletes. Were the other countries with extra athletes waiting until warm ups too an were told to keep them? If 95% of the teams in these divisions knew you could not have more then 12 boys that right there tells you that it was the TEAMS mistake for not knowing the rules. It might also be smart to have workers who KNOW the rules ahead of time instead of having to look everything up in a book.

When the scores are posted immediately after the routine, there will seldom be questions about the issue of judges or others influencing the results, why aren’t the scores posted? Does the organization have something to hide from the public and the competitors?

 

[socratesofcheer]

When the scores are posted immediately after the routine, there will seldom be questions about the issue of judges or others influencing the results, why aren’t the scores posted? Does the organization have something to hide from the public and the competitors?

In a word, YES.

 

[cheermom123]

What really gets me is that these coaches putting together these international teams are going over the rules with a fine tooth comb to make sure they are not penalized and are doing everything by the book. Shouldn't all Reps/Judges, etc. of the USASF be doing the same? Shouldn't they know these rules like the back of their hand? If the Bangkok team was getting ready to pull off their extra guys, then to me that means they were aware of the rules! Bangkok teams knew the rules better than the USASF safety judge??? That just doesn't sound right to me.

Shouldn't the moderators on this board be impartial and not "call out teams" as YOU have posted as others should do on other threads....also, as Texas Lonestar has a "horse in this race" so to speak, am disappointed that you are choosing to weigh in on this subject.

 

[CheerMomNTx]

Shouldn't the moderators on this board be impartial and not "call out teams" as YOU have posted as others should do on other threads....also, as Texas Lonestar has a "horse in this race" so to speak, am disappointed that you are choosing to weigh in on this subject.

Get over yourself!! I can have an opinion and I can post it. I am not BASHING any team LIKE YOU WERE, I am posting on what Les publicly posted regarding the team from Thailand. Oh and I won't be losing any sleep over YOU being disappointed in my post!!!

 

[ztaprincess]

When the scores are posted immediately after the routine, there will seldom be questions about the issue of judges or others influencing the results, why aren’t the scores posted? Does the organization have something to hide from the public and the competitors?

I read on twitter people were trying to get these scores and the breakdowns Sunday night and have still been trying to get them with no luck what so ever. It doesn't make sense why all other scores were released and photos passed around but for this division it is as if nothing exists. To me it seems like someone doesn't want others to know that Bangkok did not receive any legality deductions and that the amount of deductions for their extra athletes was so minimal it barely hurt them.

Like I posted earlier until they step up and post these breakdowns everyone is going to come up with their own theory, but it may save their butts in the long run to not show to breakdowns because something fishy went on and if people see that then there will be even more problems.

If anyone else can look at that scoresheet and tell me it is possible that Bangkok got that many deductions and still tied for first I would love to hear your argument.

 

[east2westandbackagain]

In gymnastics, diving, skating and most other sports, the scores are readily available, will we see scores for this division?

 

[newcheerdad]

@RulesGuy

Les,

Let me start by saying that I appreciate the job you do. As a soccer referee and tournament official, I know that being the "rules guy" is often a thankless job.

But unfortunately, I read your explanation and it raised more questions than it answered.

I'm going to not touch any legalities involved with Bangkok's performance itself. I am not an expert on cheer judging, and I do not think I'm in a position to make judgement calls on any violations inherent with their performance. I want to talk about one specific aspect - and that is the fact that Bangkok had more than 12 males on the floor.

So let's start with the first issue - which is that a USASF official told Bangkok, on Sunday, that they were allowed to compete with more than 12 males. While that communication mishap is unfortunate, it happens in lots of sports. Officials miss things, whether it be too many men on the field or an equipment violation. In a pressure-packed environment like Worlds, a mistake like that is possible.

But where things went off the rails was in how the situation was handled after that.

When it came out that Bangkok competed with too many males, the absolute first thing that should've been done was to tell them that they had to get down to 12 for finals. Period. I can buy the argument that you don't want to penalize them for the safety official's mistake in the preliminary round - and the reality is that it was a moot point anyway.

But not for the finals - not after you knew what the issue was. That's basically like saying that a soccer team that played with 12 players gets to keep playing with 12 because the referee didn't catch it right away. And I understand the idea, in theory, of giving them the option to compete with more than 12 and giving them a reduced deduction. But you did state that Bangkok was prepared earlier in the day to compete with 12 males. So they knew the rule, and were preparing for that eventuality.

You don't compound one misinterpretation of the rule with another. And you don't give a team a pass because they broke a rule that you didn't catch. If I, as someone new to the sport, wants to take cheer seriously, rules can't be changed on the fly.

I understand in that situation that it's hard to make that kind of call, especially if your own safety officials were at fault. But sometimes as a referee, those are the calls you have to make in the interest of fairness to EVERYONE involved. And that means making the tough decisions that might be unpopular, or ruffle some feathers.

Going forward, I think the rule change to ensure the age grid matches the Worlds rules for IOC6 is a good thing. And having a set penalty, whether it be treating extra males as a safety deduction or disqualification, will help as well. But the biggest thing that has to happen - across the board - is proper application of the rules.

As a relatively "immature" sport, we can't give the illusion that we make things up on the fly, or change the rules for a particular situation. We'll never move forward that way. Last weekend's events certainly didn't help the cause.

 

[lolsmileyface_backAGAIN]

I bet he wont respond to any of this, trying to sweep the problem under the rug....

is was not possible for them to beat gymtyme with all those deductions...

@RulesGuy ... wanna comment on why they were not deducted? do the worlds judges have poor vision? maybe you should buy them some glasses with all the money you are taking from people.

 

[Drkilluzionz]

I understand that the with a language barrier in-between our communication how certain mishaps can sometimes happen. My frustrations more lied within:

Bangkok having one assisted stunt sequence and scoring how they did.

Bangkok having number wise the lowest standing, running tumbling and jumps and still scoring within a close range if not out scoring the top 2 American teams.

Bangkok outscoring both TG and GT in dance.

I'm all about an underdog coming up an doing well but not at the expense of others. Bangkok is an extremely talented
And impressive team but did not adhere to the rules and score sheets the way other teams did. In the end it would not have affected my teams placement but it boils down to what's right and what's not from the coaching and the judging.

 

[cheer.obsessed.88]

So here's my theory...as we all know, Bangkok was phenomenal. Truly exciting and fun to watch! NOW...trying to build the growth of this sport across the WORLD, I do think the violations were not applied in order to see a winner from outside of the US. Ever think that the international teams may stop spending their money to come all way to Disney, if they know year after year they CAN'T win? Expeccially after watching Bangkok! 'If Bangkoks routine cant win, neither will ours' type of dissapointment. I'm sure it gave other international teams hope that they too can win worlds...That it is possible. The higher the possibility of being a world champion...the more they'll want it.

When I first competed at worlds in 2006, I was just psyched to be there! Didn't even consider winning! Didn't care what place we finished! Already we were so proud of our accomplishments! And that was a great learning experience. Ok, but year after year we got closer and closer. And it became more of a possibility that we too COULD win. And no what?! Big surprise... I am not a world champion! BUT...I refuse to give up. I've tried. I can't. And i hand over a majority of the money i make each year to continue to cheer... get just "one more shot". LOL And i know how many cheerleaders from the US feel the exact same.

If they want that drive from the rest of the world, at some point, winning HAS to be possible. AGAIN..just my thoughtss!

 

[cheer.obsessed.88]

Possibly missed my whole point haha BASICALLY! The greater the chance of winning, the greater the drive to win...the more money ones willing to spend while trying to accomplish this goal.

 

[crazyredhead]

So here's my theory...as we all know, Bangkok was phenomenal. Truly exciting and fun to watch! NOW...trying to build the growth of this sport across the WORLD, I do think the violations were not applied in order to see a winner from outside of the US. Ever think that the international teams may stop spending their money to come all way to Disney, if they know year after year they CAN'T win? Expeccially after watching Bangkok! 'If Bangkoks routine cant win, neither will ours' type of dissapointment. I'm sure it gave other international teams hope that they too can win worlds...That it is possible. The higher the possibility of being a world champion...the more they'll want it.

When I first competed at worlds in 2006, I was just psyched to be there! Didn't even consider winning! Didn't care what place we finished! Already we were so proud of our accomplishments! And that was a great learning experience. Ok, but year after year we got closer and closer. And it became more of a possibility that we too COULD win. And no what?! Big surprise... I am not a world champion! BUT...I refuse to give up. I've tried. I can't. And i hand over a majority of the money i make each year to continue to cheer... get just "one more shot". LOL And i know how many cheerleaders from the US feel the exact same.

If they want that drive from the rest of the world, at some point, winning HAS to be possible. AGAIN..just my thoughtss!

I think thats exactly it. I mean it must be discouraging coming from so far every year knowing your not gonna win because lets be honest international teams are about 3 levels behind on most skills. Now that a inter team has won I think next year there will probably be even more foreign teams at worlds.

 

[quitthedrama]

I bet he wont respond to any of this, trying to sweep the problem under the rug....

I have to disagree - Les Stella has consistently addressed comments on this board. He doesn't have all of the answers, and at times doesn't have the answers we agree with, but I appreciate the fact the he comes on and at least tries to answer our questions and concerns. I don't agree with how any of the Bangkok situation was handled, and I have some huge issues with the way USASF "upholds" the rules they put in place - not just at worlds, but also at USASF sanctioned competitions, but at least he is willing to hear what we have to say, and hopefully can bring the feedback to the table so that we can continue to evolve and become a structured sport.

 

[redsmom]

So here's my theory...as we all know, Bangkok was phenomenal. Truly exciting and fun to watch! NOW...trying to build the growth of this sport across the WORLD, I do think the violations were not applied in order to see a winner from outside of the US. Ever think that the international teams may stop spending their money to come all way to Disney, if they know year after year they CAN'T win? Expeccially after watching Bangkok! 'If Bangkoks routine cant win, neither will ours' type of dissapointment. I'm sure it gave other international teams hope that they too can win worlds...That it is possible. The higher the possibility of being a world champion...the more they'll want it.

When I first competed at worlds in 2006, I was just psyched to be there! Didn't even consider winning! Didn't care what place we finished! Already we were so proud of our accomplishments! And that was a great learning experience. Ok, but year after year we got closer and closer. And it became more of a possibility that we too COULD win. And no what?! Big surprise... I am not a world champion! BUT...I refuse to give up. I've tried. I can't. And i hand over a majority of the money i make each year to continue to cheer... get just "one more shot". LOL And i know how many cheerleaders from the US feel the exact same.

If they want that drive from the rest of the world, at some point, winning HAS to be possible. AGAIN..just my thoughtss!

While I understand your argument, I think it doesn't give international teams enough credit. I think they understand the score sheets and realize where they are falling short. I've attended worlds as a spectator 3 times now, and I can see the progress the international teams are making, which tells me they are absolutely working these skills and building their programs. Takes time to achieve level 5 and level 6 skills, I think they realize it and are committed to the sport in the same way you are

 

[cheer.obsessed.88]

While I understand your argument, I think it doesn't give international teams enough credit. I think they understand the score sheets and realize where they are falling short. I've attended worlds as a spectator 3 times now, and I can see the progress the international teams are making, which tells me they are absolutely working these skills and building their programs. Takes time to achieve level 5 and level 6 skills, I think they realize it and are committed to the sport in the same way you are

And I do agree that they are committed! And I truly appreciate watching them compete! Omg, they have all come so far within a few short years! BUT I just think the numbers of international teams that feel this way will increase due to witnessing Bangkoks win last weekend! It will bring in more competitors from outside our country.