All-Star 2012-2013 Age Grid For Worlds Teams

[cupieqt]

My senior 3 has 10 kids- 3 of them are actually senior aged, 4 are junior aged, and 3 are youth aged (it would be their last year on youth if they were on youth teams). Next year, I will have 3 that are senior aged and 7 that are junior aged. If the age is changed to 13, then I would have 3 kids that are ineligible for my senior team but that need to be on that team because of their skill level and our lack of a junior team at that level. Not to mention that my very successful team of 10 would become a team of 7. I understand what you are saying about looking at the big picture, but quite frankly, I am fed up with looking at the "big picture" as it generally means "little gym, let me give your kids one more reason to look at the big gym down the road". It's our second year of having a senior team, and we are trying to build our program. It's bad enough that I have had event producers screw my team for being small- saying that they're not impressive because there's only 10 of them, their dance isn't visually appealing because there's not enough of them, or, my favorite- "it's your choice to have 10 kids". It's a team of 10 with full team tumbling and 3 stunt groups (2 are single-based). Please don't put the nail in the coffin and change the age to 13. Small teams have an uphill battle with some EPs to begin with.

Also, my impression was that the bottom age on senior 5 is because we are trying to keep the young kids who may not be mature enough for a senior 5 from getting hurt because of their inability to mentally handle it. Just my impression- we don't have a level 5. I don't see the same issue with having younger kids on a senior 3.

JulieP speaks truth for me also. Our sr team matches hers in age and ability pretty much athlete for athlete. I wouldn't have had the best sr team I've ever coached if the bottom age was 13.

 

[tumbleyoda]

...
As far as tumbling goes, I am against limiting that as well. Our athletes need conditioning. Period. We need truly certified, well trained tumbling coaches. We need gym owners who put their foot down and refuse to allow athletes to be progressed too quickly. And I will also go back to what I said previously in other threads about under rotated fulls and doubles...give MAJOR deductions for this and I would bet my life that you will see a major decrease in injuries. That is my feeling on these two topics.

:kiss:

You would not only see a decrease in injuries, you would see a decrease in teams attempting those skills before the athlete was truly ready. Instead they are pushed because we need those skills to hit the scoresheet in that area. I can not tell you the amount of disagreements I have had with cheer coaches over the years to not put skills in a routine because the athlete was not ready and I was overruled because I was just the tumbling guy. Or how they would give Suzy a pass she couldn't do. They wanted me to hurry up and get her the skill even if it meant cutting training corners - even when they had many others on the same team who could do that same skill perfectly; but they wanted Suzy to have that pass - because she was so cute, etc. Many are willing to take the execution deduction or hope that it isn't seen rather than not have the numbers necessary for either majority or squad tumbling elements. In order for this to happen you need owners, coaches and parents who don't see the win as the end all and are willing to lose on the scoresheet knowing they are not hitting majorities in order to keep athletes safe and progressing properly. Or you have to be willing to hold them back until they truly master each level and deal with the charge of sandbagging athletes or teams when you are only trying to bring them along safely. And quite honestly you need to have a very thick skin and ignore those who opine about your program without knowing the facts about why you do what you do.

This topic so frustrates me because I have read online over and over again through the years cheer about how trained tumbling coaches cost a cheer gym too much, yet we can pay for anything else we want to do related to cheer. How it is better to partner with a gymnastic gym to teach tumbling so you can remove that from your cheer gym overhead - yet still tell them to throw janky skills in your cheer practice because they are close enough. How hiring cheerleaders who may have no real idea how to teach tumbling skills is better than hiring a trained tumbling coach that actually knows and is committed to what he or she is doing. Spotting is one thing. Teaching is something totally different. I read and see how parents so anxious to get Suzy a skill so she will not have to be on the same level team next year or wont be the only girl on the team without a skill will gym hop, pay ridiculous amounts of money for privates, bribe with a new purse, phone, American Girl doll, car etc. Seeing parents skirt coaches who do teach proper progressions and safety to go to someone else just so Suzy can hurry up and get the skill because 3 other girls on the team got the new skill. Never mind that those other 3 girls condition in the gym & at home, eat healthy and listen to instruction from their coaches while all Suzy talks about is her boyfriend, eats junk food all the time, cheats on conditioning at the gym and never conditions at home.

Please all tumbling coaches - Get trained if you are not trained. If you don't have a tumbling coach to be a mentor find one. I know many use Debbie Love and that is wonderful. But I know that there are others as well. Go to conferences if you can. Ask questions of those who have been teaching for awhile. Learn new drills, refine old drills. Learn how to spot both the right and left side. Watch videos of not just skills but how to teach the skills. Put in the extra time to be a better tumbling instructor. Learn not just how to spot but the physics of the skill, the amount of pressure athletes are placing on their bodies and develop a conditioning program for your gym. And parents - let the coaches coach!

Rant over.

 

[MyDaughterCheers]

I think the trend is that you are having true senior aged bases with true junior aged fliers. Or a good half or more of the fliers are junior aged. Which I think is necessary for the way stunts are being pushed to be harder and harder every year. You can only expect high school aged kids to be able to do so much without putting an undue risk of injury upon them.

I'm sorry, but if that is the trend that is so wrong. They are called a senior team for a reason. A junior aged flyer should fly on junior.

 

[Mclovin]

I'm sorry, but if that is the trend that is so wrong. They are called a senior team for a reason. A junior aged flyer should fly on junior.

A team won worlds last year with ALL 12 and 13 year old fliers. Now I am not bashing that gym as I feel those fliers were VERY capable and very size appropriate. None of them looked like fetuses. Our senior team has 3 out of 7 fliers that are junior aged (a 12 year old, a 13 year old and a 14 year old). The 12 year old (smallest) is 5'1" and nearing 100 pounds. Now tell me that is too small to fly on a senior team...

 

[MyDaughterCheers]

I'm not arguing the point that some girls are bigger than others, nor am I saying that a jr. aged girl should NEVER fly on a senior team. I'm just saying that if you purposely put younger flyers on senior teams because you assume your bases can't lift/hold the older flyers, then in my opinion, that is wrong. So what happens to that Jr. aged flyer when she's the 15 year old? Are you ok with her being replaced by Jrs. or do you think the senior aged girls should learn how to do the stunts with her? Do you tell the 100 lb 5'1" 15 year old that she is suddenly too big because you have an 80 pound 12 year old?

 

[5-6-7-8]

:kiss:

You would not only see a decrease in injuries, you would see a decrease in teams attempting those skills before the athlete was truly ready. Instead they are pushed because we need those skills to hit the scoresheet in that area. I can not tell you the amount of disagreements I have had with cheer coaches over the years to not put skills in a routine because the athlete was not ready and I was overruled because I was just the tumbling guy. Or how they would give Suzy a pass she couldn't do. They wanted me to hurry up and get her the skill even if it meant cutting training corners - even when they had many others on the same team who could do that same skill perfectly; but they wanted Suzy to have that pass - because she was so cute, etc. Many are willing to take the execution deduction or hope that it isn't seen rather than not have the numbers necessary for either majority or squad tumbling elements. In order for this to happen you need owners, coaches and parents who don't see the win as the end all and are willing to lose on the scoresheet knowing they are not hitting majorities in order to keep athletes safe and progressing properly. Or you have to be willing to hold them back until they truly master each level and deal with the charge of sandbagging athletes or teams when you are only trying to bring them along safely. And quite honestly you need to have a very thick skin and ignore those who opine about your program without knowing the facts about why you do what you do.

This topic so frustrates me because I have read online over and over again through the years cheer about how trained tumbling coaches cost a cheer gym too much, yet we can pay for anything else we want to do related to cheer. How it is better to partner with a gymnastic gym to teach tumbling so you can remove that from your cheer gym overhead - yet still tell them to throw janky skills in your cheer practice because they are close enough. How hiring cheerleaders who may have no real idea how to teach tumbling skills is better than hiring a trained tumbling coach that actually knows and is committed to what he or she is doing. Spotting is one thing. Teaching is something totally different. I read and see how parents so anxious to get Suzy a skill so she will not have to be on the same level team next year or wont be the only girl on the team without a skill will gym hop, pay ridiculous amounts of money for privates, bribe with a new purse, phone, American Girl doll, car etc. Seeing parents skirt coaches who do teach proper progressions and safety to go to someone else just so Suzy can hurry up and get the skill because 3 other girls on the team got the new skill. Never mind that those other 3 girls condition in the gym & at home, eat healthy and listen to instruction from their coaches while all Suzy talks about is her boyfriend, eats junk food all the time, cheats on conditioning at the gym and never conditions at home.

Please all tumbling coaches - Get trained if you are not trained. If you don't have a tumbling coach to be a mentor find one. I know many use Debbie Love and that is wonderful. But I know that there are others as well. Go to conferences if you can. Ask questions of those who have been teaching for awhile. Learn new drills, refine old drills. Learn how to spot both the right and left side. Watch videos of not just skills but how to teach the skills. Put in the extra time to be a better tumbling instructor. Learn not just how to spot but the physics of the skill, the amount of pressure athletes are placing on their bodies and develop a conditioning program for your gym. And parents - let the coaches coach!

Rant over.

YES YES YES!!! As a parent I cringe when I hear statements like, "Susie has her tuck on the tumble trak, she'll be level 3 for sure next year." I have tried to do my best to explain that having a skill on the TT is NOT the same as having it on the floor, and just having it on the floor doesn't mean it is competition ready. And that a level in cheer isn't just about tumbling, but about being all around level x.

And to the first statement I bolded, I would LOVE to see owners / coaches be a bit tougher with parents on this. I know it is a business, and yes, you may lose a few kids, but in the long run it will be so much better to take the time to build the tumbling skills correctly.

 

[5-6-7-8]

... And I will also go back to what I said previously in other threads about under rotated fulls and doubles...give MAJOR deductions for this and I would bet my life that you will see a major decrease in injuries. That is my feeling on these two topics.

I LOVE this idea! And I say the same for all tumbling...I would love to see solid, clean tumbling at all levels. This would help coaches / owners in the battle to keep Susie progressing before she is ready, even from level 1 to level 2. Basically parents would have to understand that just because Susie has a barely there back handspring, she wouldn't be moved up to level 2 until it was much more solid. I don't think most (since we aren't all quite as logical) parents would want their kid being a detriment to a team.

 

[tumbleyoda]

YES YES YES!!! As a parent I cringe when I hear statements like, "Susie has her tuck on the tumble trak, she'll be level 3 for sure next year." I have tried to do my best to explain that having a skill on the TT is NOT the same as having it on the floor, and just having it on the floor doesn't mean it is competition ready. And that a level in cheer isn't just about tumbling, but about being all around level x.

And to the first statement I bolded, I would LOVE to see owners / coaches be a bit tougher with parents on this. I know it is a business, and yes, you may lose a few kids, but in the long run it will be so much better to take the time to build the tumbling skills correctly.

I jokingly tell my our parents that I get a 10% finders fee of all bribes given for skill attainment

My way is archaic to some but it works for the way I teach. Having a skill in tumble class doesn't mean it is ready for a routine. i will let you work on a skill all day long in class as long as it is safe, but that does not mean it is routine ready. Once it is ready in a routine, it goes in the gym practice routine to see if they can do it full out with the rest of the routine. Then it eventually goes on the competition floor locally. Then finally it goes on the floor at big competitions when the pressure is really on. That is 4 different checks to one skill, before allowing a new one to be introduced into a routine. It not only deals with the physical skill, but the emotional, mental, and conditioning aspect as well. I have seen athletes who have a skill solid crack under the pressure of throwing it at a competition and not be able to throw it or land it. That should be taken into account by somebody. Of course this means a slower progression, but it also means that once they get it, they rarely lose it.

 

[5-6-7-8]

I jokingly tell my our parents that I get a 10% finders fee of all bribes given for skill attainment

My way is archaic to some but it works for the way I teach. Having a skill in tumble class doesn't mean it is ready for a routine. i will let you work on a skill all day long in class as long as it is safe, but that does not mean it is routine ready. Once it is ready in a routine, it goes in the gym practice routine to see if they can do it full out with the rest of the routine. Then it eventually goes on the competition floor locally. Then finally it goes on the floor at big competitions when the pressure is really on. That is 4 different checks to one skill, before allowing a new one to be introduced into a routine. It not only deals with the physical skill, but the emotional, mental, and conditioning aspect as well. I have seen athletes who have a skill solid crack under the pressure of throwing it at a competition and not be able to throw it or land it. That should be taken into account by somebody. Of course this means a slower progression, but it also means that once they get it, they rarely lose it.

I think that is a GREAT way! As a parent, I would be so happy to see this than the push to get skills and stuff them in routines when they are not yet ready. (Guess that comes with being in the sport more than one - two years??) I have already seen CPs team get hit with tumbling deductions for athletes who maybe shouldn't have been throwing the skill yet. In competitions where results are super close, that small deduction can mean the difference between 1st and 3rd place.

 

[cupieqt]

Of course this means a slower progression, but it also means that once they get it, they rarely lose it.

Which is how it should be. We all but eliminated mental blocks with the same style of progression and checklist. Training in a gymnastics facility has greatly improved our tumbling technique. I bow to our amazing gymnastics coaches.

 

[MyDaughterCheers]

Which is how it should be. We all but eliminated mental blocks with the same style of progression and checklist. Training in a gymnastics facility has greatly improved our tumbling technique. I bow to our amazing gymnastics coaches.

I can't agree with this more. My CPs gym has tumbling coaches and she takes an extra class locally at a gymnastics facility. The improvement in her tumbling and technique is dramatic.

 

[yojaehs]

Mclovin I feel like we share the same brain! Under rotation, locked legs, landing with feet apart is the killer of ACL's across the country, I don't care what skill your trying (full/double). I will say that my gym has taken an active roll in meeting with local Physical Therapists to work on improving conditioning programs (on top of those that we already have in place).
Also, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 14 the age max for "Jr's"? So if you don't want to see a "Jr" aged kid in the air, shouldn't we put the age of Sr teams at 15? I just don't get this, so many people are complaining about seeing the "little girl" in the air, we have 17/18 year old girls that couldn't pass for 12 unless they have their dental records on hand with them (and we carry a copy of their birth certificates for proof at every comp) so bc they are small should they be outlawed too?
I hear "I'm tired of seeing these tiny girls in the air", my reply "I'm tired of seeing bigger girls fall on the floor". I mean common. If you wanna say the "age range" should be changed, I need a BETTER excuse than "I'm tired of seeing the tiny girl/jr aged girl in the air". As I've said before, whatever the age, I'm sure everyone will find a way to make it work, but don't change it for something that doesn't make sense.

 

[yojaehs]

I completely get where you are coming from, as obviously you know, I had a J5 team that had 12 kids on it part of this year. I agree that sometimes it was the "not enough visual in dance! Only 3 stunt groups" but after placing second at Cheersport in Atlanta and being close behind first - We were at an advantage. I only had three stunts to clean. I had 8 less kids than most teams to get legs straight in their tumbling. I had lower majorities to hit than everyone else. Cleaner transitions, etc. So while there were some disadvantages to having a low number - there are also things a large team could complain about that the smaller teams had an advantage!

Honest question, do you feel there should be a smaller division as in 12/16? I only ask this because you seem to have supported what I said previously that EP's are adjusting their grids to accommodate smaller teams. We have a jr 4 with 19 on it that is successful and last year had 18 (and they went undefeated with only 18) and I feel that less members helped us hit the grids better than teams of 20 that filled for the sake of filling. I'm just curious if across the country their is a large enough demand for a 12/16 smallER division across all levels? My gym does not qualify for "small gym" so should 12/16 be ONLY for "small gym" divisions or should it be added to all. Also do you think it should be across the boards in all levels and divisions?

 

[SparkleSpankies]

I'm not arguing the point that some girls are bigger than others, nor am I saying that a jr. aged girl should NEVER fly on a senior team. I'm just saying that if you purposely put younger flyers on senior teams because you assume your bases can't lift/hold the older flyers, then in my opinion, that is wrong. So what happens to that Jr. aged flyer when she's the 15 year old? Are you ok with her being replaced by Jrs. or do you think the senior aged girls should learn how to do the stunts with her? Do you tell the 100 lb 5'1" 15 year old that she is suddenly too big because you have an 80 pound 12 year old?

I agree with this. Let's give more great TINY top girls that are just not as pint sized as someone that may be younger... even more body image issues. I understand for some skills logistically some people are just bigger, but I agree the 5'1" 100 lb 15 year old is small and well, as long as she is that size and she very well may stay that size through high school (genetics is a funny thing, isn't it) that she all of a sudden becomes too big for the 4'10" 80 pound junior girl who also tops out a few years later at 5'1" 100 lbs... I can just keep seeing body image issues!

RAISE THE AGE, the girls by 13 at least are more likely to have developed more and you may have a better sense of their size for the future!

 

[MyDaughterCheers]

I agree with this. Let's give more great TINY top girls that are just not as pint sized as someone that may be younger... even more body image issues. I understand for some skills logistically some people are just bigger, but I agree the 5'1" 100 lb 15 year old is small and well, as long as she is that size and she very well may stay that size through high school (genetics is a funny thing, isn't it) that she all of a sudden becomes too big for the 4'10" 80 pound junior girl who also tops out a few years later at 5'1" 100 lbs... I can just keep seeing body image issues!

RAISE THE AGE, the girls by 13 at least are more likely to have developed more and you may have a better sense of their size for the future!

I wish I could shimmy this more than once. My CP is that 15 year old. In her old gym, she was the biggest flyer. The bases were great, but after awhile, they would all complain and tell her she was too fat. Talk about hurting a girl's self esteem. Only in the cheer world is that considered big or fat. I am happy to say that on her team now, all of the flyers are 15 or older, with the exception of one.