All-Star Evolution?

[taytaydaubs]

IMO I don't think it is unfair at all. Any team could do it really, and as stated earlier I'm sure any LAG team could have pulled strings and made it happen. Seeing this method has worked for them 2 years in a row now, I hope that other teams in the division realize they may need to take similar risks to increase their rewards if they are in a similar situation in the future. I think it adds excitement and unpredictability to the competition. My guess is that people that don't respect this probably just wish their favorite teams had done the same thing.

 

[mstealtoyou]

I mean it's no secret that I think CSP is a genius. So my opinion isn't impartial at all.

I will say that on Friday the team knew that they would be practicing on Saturday after she had their scoresheets and feedback so there was already gym time set up for them. As far as transportation goes the parents on the team that had cars came to the hotel, the girls piled in and we drove them to the gym for practice. It's as simple as that. This was all planned before we even knew the scores. As an aside, in 2012 SE and Coed Elite both practiced at a gym after Saturday's performance's too. Our teams do this all the time. The fact that SE practiced on Saturday at a gym 22 miles away isn't new for us at all.

Had we been in 1st by 30 points our team would have still practiced as usual. We weren't though we were 30 points from 1st.......I'm astounded that anybody is surprised that a coach would practice with their team and change anything that would get them more points in FINAL's. Worlds is a 1 day competition. The spirit of the event is to bring your best at Final's. That's what she did.

Also wanted to say that feedback about the performance led her to call JR and ask if he would do a new song and he agreed. We were lucky that he could accommodate our request in a timely fashion. Let me ask this question......what if feedback for XYZ Allstars was that the running tumbling song was too slow and that was reflected in your tumbling scores. Wouldn't you do everything in your power to get a faster tumbling song in there so your scores would go up the next day? Is CSP the only person who would call their music person and say "Hey look here's the deal. Can you help us?" I can't imagine she is.

 

[callmecoach]

But for a different perspective, cheer.coach mentioned that any of the other LAG teams could have done the same, but they didn't (as far as I'm aware). So were they just not as smart or felt it wasn't the right thing to do?

All of the programs with LAG teams are exceptional as are their coaches. It takes being smart to even have a team in this division or any team in finals at Worlds. I think the difference lies in philosophy. From what I've heard/seen/watched of CSP and CEA as a whole, they have a risk-taking philosophy and believe in doing whatever it takes to give their teams the best chance at getting the top spot. Other coaches/gyms might feel it's more important to put out a solid routine that the athletes are familiar with and can execute well and let the chips fall where they may.

My prediction is that in the future more and more gyms are going to go into Worlds with a plan A and plan B already set. It's clear now that the judges reward routines that are adjusted to score better based on day 1 feedback.

 

[mstealtoyou]

Hopefully this won't become a total crapstorm...

But while watching the Worlds coverage this weekend, I had at least 1 of 2 rumors substantiated during the CEA interview. That being that between semis and finals, they practiced at a local gym, whereas previously I had heard they just practiced out in the field. If that wasn't even a rumor, then ignore my use of it and proceed anyway.

Both locations are true. The team did run the routine a few times on the field directly behind the Milkhouse after they competed. The girls were dismissed back to the hotel to eat, rest a little and get into practice clothes. So, they did practice both places.

 

[The Sixth]

All of the programs with LAG teams are exceptional as are their coaches. It takes being smart to even have a team in this division or any team in finals at Worlds. I think the difference lies in philosophy. From what I've heard/seen/watched of CSP and CEA as a whole, they have a risk-taking philosophy and believe in doing whatever it takes to give their teams the best chance at getting the top spot. Other coaches/gyms might feel it's more important to put out a solid routine that the athletes are familiar with and can execute well and let the chips fall where they may.

My prediction is that in the future more and more gyms are going to go into Worlds with a plan A and plan B already set. It's clear now that the judges reward routines that are adjusted to score better based on day 1 feedback.

I won't argue whether risk taking is their philosophy or not, since I don't know anybody personally. You could however debate the level of perceived risk in changes.

As an example, let's say you get a comment on basket variety. Def seen that one, so the coach says, ok change basket A to basket B which is a lateral move difficulty wise, but scores higher based on what the judges want.

Now let's say, the pyramid doesn't hit the required structures or maybe they just say they'd like to see more flips. Maybe not something you'd safely do outside of your All Star room, but you do have a backup pyramid. Risky to choose to do pyramid B? Yes. However the same scenario but you have access to a gym, and you're able to practice safely over and over. Risky? Not so much.

I think people are getting too caught up in the question of change, not the implementation. Or God forbid a CEA thing. I don't even want it to be about CEA, it's just an example that happened to work out. I'm always interested in discussion of how the sport is growing or changing.

 

[mstealtoyou]

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from here @The Sixth. You're saying that it would be more acceptable if we had practiced for 4 hours on 1 of the fields at the hotel, made all the changes we did, hit those changes for our score to go up and won on Sunday.

The fact that we took the kids to a gym in the area gave us an unfair advantage because not all gyms/teams (not just in LAG but all divisions) do not have access to those kind's of accomodations?

It's a serious question, I promise I'm not being snarky. Just trying to make sure I understand where your concern lies.

 

[callmecoach]

I think people are getting too caught up in the question of change, not the implementation. Or God forbid a CEA thing. I don't even want it to be about CEA, it's just an example that happened to work out. I'm always interested in discussion of how the sport is growing or changing.

I was just using CEA as an example based on the situation mentioned in your original post. Between any two teams there may be the same difference in philosophies and varying willingness on the part of coaches to make changes between day 1 and day 2. I also think people are discussing changes vs. not making changes in response to your original question about whether or not doing so goes against the spirit of the event.

If we're talking implementation, I agree pretty much with what everyone else has said about gym accessibility and the prevalence of teams practicing in gyms at two-day events, specifically Worlds. It happens a lot and teams from huge mega-gyms do it as do teams from smaller gyms. It's pretty commonplace specifically at Disney even at the high school level. I would imagine that because of this demand there is a decent amount of gyms in and around Orlando who rent their space for this purpose. I don't think you need a huge amount of financial flexibility to be able to do this. In my opinion teams that practice in gyms between days 1 and 2 do not have an unfair advantage because their competitors can do the same if they choose.

As far as the music change goes, I think even for CEA it was a lucky break that JR was available to make the change that quickly and efficiently.

 

[The Sixth]

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from here @The Sixth. You're saying that it would be more acceptable if we had practiced for 4 hours on 1 of the fields at the hotel, made all the changes we did, hit those changes for our score to go up and won on Sunday.

The fact that we took the kids to a gym in the area gave us an unfair advantage because not all gyms/teams (not just in LAG but all divisions) do not have access to those kind's of accomodations?

It's a serious question, I promise I'm not being snarky. Just trying to make sure I understand where your concern lies.

No worries on the snarkiness. But yes, what you stated is along the lines of what I'm thinking. Just asking (with CEA as an example) is if it gets to a point where changes are made that require an implementation that might be considered an unfair advantage? Based at least on cheer.coach's feedback, maybe it is more common than I think.

I was just using CEA as an example based on the situation mentioned in your original post. Between any two teams there may be the same difference in philosophies and varying willingness on the part of coaches to make changes between day 1 and day 2. I also think people are discussing changes vs. not making changes in response to your original question about whether or not doing so goes against the spirit of the event.

Sorry, I think I was completing a thought in my head and it didn't quite make it on paper. I do agree, with coaches having different philosophies. No argument there, and why some may have chosen to "let it ride". I'd just seen so many comments about risky strategy and focused only on saying I wouldn't say for sure whether it might truly be considered risky or not, regardless of whether that is her philosophy.

 

[BigBow]

EVERY competition I went to, we practiced the majority of the time. It was never a fun trip or a vacation. We were our coaches for the weekend and our parents were lucky if they got us for dinner. Those girls are at worlds for one reason. They knew what they had to do to win and they did it. Period. We practiced in fields, sand, hotel conference rooms...I'd be ecstatic if I got to practice in an actual gym with a spring floor. That team had a job to do and they got it done. It is amazing that they pulled it off so perfectly. Go CSP and cea!


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[MissCongeniality]

I don't see anything wrong with it.
I think it would have been great if all divisions had been given this sort of opportunity to have time to make changes...certainly not an option for medium all girl and medium coed seeing as they finished so late and were first on the following morning. That's more where I see things as being "unfair" (so to speak)

 

[Tealxblack25]

Lots of gyms that travel to florida for worlds use other gyms to practice at while they are down there

 

[TheTalkedAboutMinor]

I really don't think there's any wrongdoing in this situation. Courtney/Senior Elite wanted to win badly, and I admire them for taking action and doing whatever they could to win. In addition, Courtney did this because she can. She is one of the most intelligent, successful people in the entire cheerleading world. This woman has tons of connections, so kudos to her that she actually has the ability to build her business into what it's become.

 

[callmecoach]

Sorry, I think I was completing a thought in my head and it didn't quite make it on paper. I do agree, with coaches having different philosophies. No argument there, and why some may have chosen to "let it ride". I'd just seen so many comments about risky strategy and focused only on saying I wouldn't say for sure whether it might truly be considered risky or not, regardless of whether that is her philosophy.

To your point there I definitely agree it's riskier if you don't make your changes in a gym setting. There are certain changes that are way easier to make in a gym and some that are impossible to make without one. If changes are made to, say, standing tumbling and spots are changed, I think it's a big safety risk to make those changes on the football field at Allstar and hope that your athletes get it right on the mat. I would want to see my athletes on the correct panels at the right time to ensure no collisions would occur due to confusion about choreo.

But I guess that means coaches have to plan accordingly. If you are a coach that knows you're going to make changes if the day 1 scoring warrants them, the better option is to have that gym time reserved so you can do it the right way. As @mstealtoyou confirmed, CSP did reserve the gym in advance, so I would say she came prepared and probably made her teams mentally prepared to make changes if needed.

Gym or no gym, though, I think it's always risky to make changes and trust your athletes to execute them on a day's notice, even if they knew it was a possibility.

 

[Dixie]

1. I didn't have a problem with them making changes. Isn't that kinda why they start fresh the next day. You want to bring an entirely new routine day 2? Bring it on!
2. I do feel some teams would be at an advantage. Notice, teams, not gyms. If your gym brings 2 teams, you probably have the coaching staff available to spend 4 hours with 1 team reworking a routine. If you bring 9 teams, it's gonna be hard devoting that amount of time with 1 team without the others suffering. I'm not feeling sorry for the gyms with 9 worlds teams, it's just something to factor in.
3. Judges comments would HAVE to be more universal. SE got a comment their music was slow in the pyramid. We got 'you just weren't fiery'. "Okay ladies. We're gonna spend the next 4 hours practicing the art of self-igniting." Problems could arise.
Again, congrats to SE. They brought it and they earned it. Wear those rings with pride!


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[Bystander]

Ok one thing they didnt "come back" from 30 points down! you started even on Sunday! that cea fell on sat was the reason your score was low. so no comeback sorry. Now if you would have counted the first days score yeah then it would have been a huge comeback. otherwise you hit one routine to win. second did coed elite and lady elite get the same attention as sr elite? why no changes and new music for them? If they did I guess the attention didnt pay off for them.