All-Star Cheer Athletics (questions/rumors)

[newcheerdad]

I think half-year teams will start being a bit bigger for the reasons that you suggest, but they won't ever replace the regular all-star teams. The quality and time commitment of a rec league soccer/baseball league is not comparable to the typical all-star program. It is more similar to select sports leagues and gymnastics where the quality and price is much more in line with what all-star gyms typically charge.

Sure, someone who wants to join an all-star team at our gym would easily shell out $4,000 (or more) this year between comp fees, uniforms, travel and tuition. That's probably a better deal than gymnastics or some select sports leagues. (not soccer, which by comparison is ridiculously cheap) For kids that just want to "try" cheer to see what it's like, but also want to compete, $4,000 is too much money.

I think half-year teams, or teams like our gym has that are "introductory" teams that practice less, are a good start. But even then, you're probably still looking at close to $1,000 a year. I know that I've personally talked to parents who love to have their kids try competitive cheer, but don't want to spend that kind of money.

I'm not smart enough to know what the answer is to this question, but I do recognize that the cost of all-star cheer is a real barrier to increasing participation. And that maybe gyms that are looking for ways to increase utilization of their facilities can find ways to create low-cost programs that allow kids to participate and even compete in cheer without the major expense.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

There are gyms that have half year teams and also non-travel teams. The issue here, is that besides local competitions, youre looking at really high entry fees. I think Cheer Tech has a great idea with the Season Pass they have for $199 a cheerleader. Then add on uniforms, $200. And then gym fees, and youre easily over $500.

Even high school cheerleading has fees involved. Pop warner would probably be the best option to try something competitive, but even still depending where you are, prices are different.

@kingston had a thread once about the barriers to entry in cheerleading. I believe he discussed, you can't have a good team without a good facility. And facilities cost money.

 

[The Sixth]

I think half-year teams, or teams like our gym has that are "introductory" teams that practice less, are a good start. But even then, you're probably still looking at close to $1,000 a year. I know that I've personally talked to parents who love to have their kids try competitive cheer, but don't want to spend that kind of money.

I feel like Mom and Pop gyms already fill this niche. There are some that are possibly hoping to expand into a larger (not necessarily large) gym, but others that are happy to just support a small set of teams, and focus on those local regional competitions. Happy to just make a living doing what they love. I think folks out there asking for anything less than a gym requires to cover costs and make a living are just asking for a luxury car at an economy price. It just won't happen.

 

[newcheerdad]

I feel like Mom and Pop gyms already fill this niche. There are some that are possibly hoping to expand into a larger (not necessarily large) gym, but others that are happy to just support a small set of teams, and focus on those local regional competitions. Happy to just make a living doing what they love. I think folks out there asking for anything less than a gym requires to cover costs and make a living are just asking for a luxury car at an economy price. It just won't happen.

Even the cheapest "Mom and Pop" gyms in our area charge $60-$75 per month for tuition for a 6 or 7-month season. (for teams other than "exhibition" teams) At the bare minimum you're probably still paying $500-$600 per year after you factor in comp fees and uniforms. When the choice is between that or playing a sport on rec team that costs $100 per year, a lot of parents will direct their kids towards the rec team.

And if they show an aptitude for that sport and want a higher level of competition, those sports have options that involve a lot more travel, competition and $$$. We convert a lot of kids who play rec soccer into people who play competitively. (although even our competitive teams only cost around $1,000 per year including equipment and uniforms)

What cheer lacks, I think, is that "entry level" price point that gets kids involved.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Even Lazers were really cheap this year but still really expensive.
$50 tuition a month. girls uni was $112. Competition fees were $400 (athletic champs RI, can am Myrtle beach, return to atlantis baltimore, and 2 locals) $20 for dance choreography. That is all that was paid to the gym. And i dont think they could make it cheaper and worthwhile if they tried.

 

[The Sixth]

Realistically, I think there just needs to be that paradigm shift that says that $500-$600 IS our "rec league". While it's not wholly impossible, I think it would be really hard for cheerleaders to perform in t-shirts and shorts, which is what you can get away with in things like baseball, or soccer. And even the extra expenditure of equipment is typically equipment that can be re-used year after year. So it's a bit of apples and oranges.

Now with that said, I'm not at all discounting your thinking that it would be great for an even cheaper solution. It would. I just feel that only large gyms would have the ability to have a chance at subsidizing the costs, and there aren't enough to reach the masses, which is the very reasoning behind it.

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Gym fees really can't get cheaper than $50 a month. There is a huge different between practicing on equipment that needs to be maintained inside a facility that uses electricity, etc and practicing outside on a field with a cheap ball and a net that has been there for 10 years. Not to mention qualified coaches.

Uniforms, you could probably do a really cost effective solution with a basic stock skirt for $25 and a stock long sleeve top with a logo sewn onto it for $50-75.

But again, its about paying for entry fees. If you want to go to a local competition that is $300 a team ($15 each) and compete against 1 team if you're lucky, then that is great. But if you want to compete on a spring floor, in something other than a high school gym, there will be costs associated.

 

[newcheerdad]

Realistically, I think there just needs to be that paradigm shift that says that $500-$600 IS our "rec league". While it's not wholly impossible, I think it would be really hard for cheerleaders to perform in t-shirts and shorts, which is what you can get away with in things like baseball, or soccer. And even the extra expenditure of equipment is typically equipment that can be re-used year after year. So it's a bit of apples and oranges.

Now with that said, I'm not at all discounting your thinking that it would be great for an even cheaper solution. It would. I just feel that only large gyms would have the ability to have a chance at subsidizing the costs, and there aren't enough to reach the masses, which is the very reasoning behind it.

Let me put it this way. If you could come up with a price point that says that my entire cost of participating for a year - all-inclusive - is, say, $400 - would you get more kids into the sport? At that point, the difference between $100 + equipment for something like rec softball and $400 for cheer isn't dramatic enough that a parent is going to immediately say no to it.

So could you have a scenario where tuition costs were capped at $250 per season? Maybe $75-$100 for a super basic uniform. Six local comps (including ones that are essentially "non-profit" to allow these "rec" teams to compete against each other) for the kids at $15 a pop. That's about $415-$440 per year. At THAT price point, would more kids participate? Even if these rec teams aren't super-profitable, the end game would be to get these kids into your program.

And if you got more kids into the sport, would that mean more kids on all-star teams down the line?

 

[imrichhowboutu]

Let me put it this way. If you could come up with a price point that says that my entire cost of participating for a year - all-inclusive - is, say, $400 - would you get more kids into the sport? At that point, the difference between $100 + equipment for something like rec softball and $400 for cheer isn't dramatic enough that a parent is going to immediately say no to it.

So could you have a scenario where tuition costs were capped at $250 per season? Maybe $75-$100 for a super basic uniform. Six local comps (including ones that are essentially "non-profit" to allow these "rec" teams to compete against each other) for the kids at $15 a pop. That's about $415-$440 per year. At THAT price point, would more kids participate? Even if these rec teams aren't super-profitable, the end game would be to get these kids into your program.

And if you got more kids into the sport, would that mean more kids on all-star teams down the line?

I vote @newcheerdad best overall for 2011-2012!

I think that is a great idea. Gyms could probably offer a team that only practices 1 day a week with minimal tumbling. Perhaps a junior 1 or senior 1 team. (kids could take tumbling classes during the week if they want more tumble time). It would allow kids to build up a love for the sport and then hopefully turn into a regular team the following season.

This team with limited practice would be ok with only competing a handful of times and would be more interested in just getting on the floor and having fun? And what is to stop a gym from entering a Rec division? Rec divisions are a lot more popular at the local level.

 

[newcheerdad]

I vote @newcheerdad best overall for 2011-2012!

I think that is a great idea. Gyms could probably offer a team that only practices 1 day a week with minimal tumbling. Perhaps a junior 1 or senior 1 team. (kids could take tumbling classes during the week if they want more tumble time). It would allow kids to build up a love for the sport and then hopefully turn into a regular team the following season.

This team with limited practice would be ok with only competing a handful of times and would be more interested in just getting on the floor and having fun? And what is to stop a gym from entering a Rec division? Rec divisions are a lot more popular at the local level.

The point is to get kids involved, to compete against kids their age and win a trophy. Probably would only be level 1 teams and I think it would skew far more towards the tiny/mini divisions, but the point is the one you made - to build up a love for the sport. It's far easier to get a kid to move up to the "regular" team if they're already in your program.

But even if they don't, it builds up the overall participation numbers. These kids eventually grow up to be adults who have a knowledge of competitive cheer. Some of them might remain fans if they don't compete. If the experience is positive they'll tell friends who have young kids and encourage them to give it a shot. And because the price point isn't outrageous, they'll be far more likely to than they are today - where you tell a parent all-star cheer costs $3,000 a year for your 8-year-old and they look at you like you have a hole in your head.

 

[BlueCat]

Let me put it this way. If you could come up with a price point that says that my entire cost of participating for a year - all-inclusive - is, say, $400 - would you get more kids into the sport? At that point, the difference between $100 + equipment for something like rec softball and $400 for cheer isn't dramatic enough that a parent is going to immediately say no to it.

So could you have a scenario where tuition costs were capped at $250 per season? Maybe $75-$100 for a super basic uniform. Six local comps (including ones that are essentially "non-profit" to allow these "rec" teams to compete against each other) for the kids at $15 a pop. That's about $415-$440 per year. At THAT price point, would more kids participate? Even if these rec teams aren't super-profitable, the end game would be to get these kids into your program.

And if you got more kids into the sport, would that mean more kids on all-star teams down the line?

It would be a matter of determining if this type of team would be worth it long-term as a loss-leader for your business. Would the gym be willing to lose a significant amount of money on these types of teams in the hopes that they can recruit a portion of those kids for your "regular" all-star teams? (and then recoup some of that lost money.)

You would ALSO have to have an event producer willing to essentially do the same thing to get entry fees down to $15 an athlete. They could not possibly run a quality event with entry fees that low and make money on it.

I agree that a half-year, rec team scenario is a potential way to increase participation. I'm not sure that going to 6 events and keeping the total cost near $400 is realistic, though.

If you could get cities to build cheer gyms and let people use them for free (like soccer fields) then, it would be a lot easier to make work.

 

[The Sixth]

Let me put it this way. If you could come up with a price point that says that my entire cost of participating for a year - all-inclusive - is, say, $400 - would you get more kids into the sport? At that point, the difference between $100 + equipment for something like rec softball and $400 for cheer isn't dramatic enough that a parent is going to immediately say no to it.

So could you have a scenario where tuition costs were capped at $250 per season? Maybe $75-$100 for a super basic uniform. Six local comps (including ones that are essentially "non-profit" to allow these "rec" teams to compete against each other) for the kids at $15 a pop. That's about $415-$440 per year. At THAT price point, would more kids participate? Even if these rec teams aren't super-profitable, the end game would be to get these kids into your program.

And if you got more kids into the sport, would that mean more kids on all-star teams down the line?

Nope I agree. But again, it's like asking for a luxury car at an econobox price. Travel for example, simply can't be made cheaper, because not every city is going to offer a competition venue like a soccer or baseball field. It competitive cost just can't happen, unless somebody is willing to subsidize fixed costs, which most likely would have to be done at the gym level first. As I stated, there are few supergyms that could probably even do it, but irregardless of whether it can reach the masses outside of a 25 mile radius, I suppose any program would be better than none.

 

[newcheerdad]

It would be a matter of determining if this type of team would be worth it long-term as a loss-leader for your business. Would the gym be willing to lose a significant amount of money on these types of teams in the hopes that they can recruit a portion of those kids for your "regular" all-star teams? (and then recoup some of that lost money.)

You would ALSO have to have an event producer willing to essentially do the same thing to get entry fees down to $15 an athlete. They could not possibly run a quality event with entry fees that low and make money on it.

I agree that a half-year, rec team scenario is a potential way to increase participation. I'm not sure that going to 6 events and keeping the total cost near $400 is realistic, though.

If you could get cities to build cheer gyms and let people use them for free (like soccer fields) then, it would be a lot easier to make work.

I wasn't suggesting my proposal was realistic.

If $400 isn't a realistic break-even point, then what is? $600? $800? The issue I think we've got with cheer right now - and will probably have for some time - is that if the costs are too high in comparison to other youth sports then you'll always have difficulty growing the sport. Gyms like yours, like World Cup, like Top Gun - they're brand names and will always have the ability to attract athletes and grow. It's harder for gyms in the second and third-tier.

From an event producer standpoint, I'm wondering if there's a way to put on events without an "event producer". If you had a consortium of gyms in a local area, they could take turns hosting events at local high schools, or consolidating these rec comps with other local fundraiser-type competitions. (I've worked on one of these events and yes, I know they're a ton of work.) Or heck, do them at a local gym if that's feasible. The idea isn't to have fancy, flashy events - it's to get these kids on the floor in full uniforms competing against other kids for trophies.

I don't know what the right answer is, since I don't see cities pumping money into spring floors anytime soon.

 

[AcaseA]

I went to a class at a conference this weekend where one of your co-owners Angela talked about coaching an athletes.
She went over a lot of neat ideas you guys have going on in your gym (High-5 week, be a zero, etc.)

What is YOUR favorite/most effective way to encourage or motivate your athletes?
I find this to be challenging in my small gym and CA obviously has got it down.

 

[BlueCat]

I wasn't suggesting my proposal was realistic.

If $400 isn't a realistic break-even point, then what is? $600? $800? The issue I think we've got with cheer right now - and will probably have for some time - is that if the costs are too high in comparison to other youth sports then you'll always have difficulty growing the sport. Gyms like yours, like World Cup, like Top Gun - they're brand names and will always have the ability to attract athletes and grow. It's harder for gyms in the second and third-tier.

From an event producer standpoint, I'm wondering if there's a way to put on events without an "event producer". If you had a consortium of gyms in a local area, they could take turns hosting events at local high schools, or consolidating these rec comps with other local fundraiser-type competitions. (I've worked on one of these events and yes, I know they're a ton of work.) Or heck, do them at a local gym if that's feasible. The idea isn't to have fancy, flashy events - it's to get these kids on the floor in full uniforms competing against other kids for trophies.

I don't know what the right answer is, since I don't see cities pumping money into spring floors anytime soon.

One of the first things you would have to jettison is the idea of having full uniforms. You would simply HAVE to be in shorts and a t-shirt to even think about getting the price down anywhere near the range you are talking about.

One issue is that few all-star gyms want their teams anywhere near a "rival" gym with the size to host an event like that. The last thing that you would want if you were in our area would be to trapse some of your new athletes into our gym for a competition. It would almost certainly have to be at a neutral site to work - at least in our area. (Don't get me wrong, we would host the event for free in that scenario.)