Crazy ideas for improving the all-star industry

[cheermommaRN]

this is why we need standardization and rules/divisions set - it isn't fair that small teams have to go against large teams at any competition - just the creativity etc is never scored the same - EVER. See the link for the Atlanta NCA comp this weekend - it is more like a stingrays exhibition - i feel sorry for all of the other small teams going
http://www.nca.varsity.com/pdfs/atlanta_po.pdf

I agree especially when it comes to Worlds and the Junior teams. For example...Arizona Myths took a small Jr team to Worlds their 1st year, they were a great little team but they only had 12 members...even hitting all of their tumbling and performing flawless stunts there was no way they could compete against World Cup's team of 36(?) kids. WC was able to put up twice as many stunts and had triple the fulls because they had more kids to do it with. Of course this adds more divisions to Worlds....

 

[heart33]

How about a shorter season? Football competes for 3 months. Baseball/softball competes for 3-4 months. A shorter season would be less wear and tear on the athletes' bodies but the companies would earn less so it probably wouldn't happen.

 

[garretttt]

How about a shorter season? Football competes for 3 months. Baseball/softball competes for 3-4 months. A shorter season would be less wear and tear on the athletes' bodies but the companies would earn less so it probably wouldn't happen.

Football players train early though while the season may end november, december(depending on how far they make it) they start training again in feburary or so. As for cheer a lot of 1-4 teams end the season in march and don't start until usually may. I like having year round cheerleading, it keeps me busy!

 

[allgoodpeople]

Is there another sport based on subjective judging that tries to judge 20 to 36 athletes simultaneously in a 4-5 minute period? It was a long day at work but I just do not think there is an example of 36 kids doing 100s of motions and skills in a 150 seconds with a small panel of judges being charged with immediate evaluation, decision making and scoring of the entire routine. In football, there are 22 players, each referee having a small section they are responsible for, and a play lasting at the most 7-10 seconds. And often, the question is only in an area where 2 players are involved, and they review. I'm sorry, but if there is ever going to be accuracy, reproducibility and objectivity in judging all star cheer, somebody is going to have to review tapes. You can have all the standardized scoring you want, but if it is not applied with some consistency, it will remain a sport looking for an acceptable system of evaluation.

 

[FRESH]

How about a shorter season? Football competes for 3 months. Baseball/softball competes for 3-4 months. A shorter season would be less wear and tear on the athletes' bodies but the companies would earn less so it probably wouldn't happen.

Football players train early though while the season may end november, december(depending on how far they make it) they start training again in feburary or so. As for cheer a lot of 1-4 teams end the season in march and don't start until usually may. I like having year round cheerleading, it keeps me busy!

haha i play college ball, we just started workouts. we train just as long as yall do

 

[samantha says]

It would be ideal if coaches could review their score sheets and standings before any "official" standings are announced. This would really eliminate all the problems that occur when the company knows they made a mistake, but it's "too late" to do anything about it.

So possible scenario: the Jr CoEd 5 division took place between 3-5PM... coaches receive standings and score sheets at 7PM... review any errors in scoring/deductions. the judges may have made during the live performance and back the case up with video evidence... discuss any concerns before the final results (official results) are posted for that day at 9PM.

I can live in my fantasy world, can't I?

 

[JUSTICE]

Is there another sport based on subjective judging that tries to judge 20 to 36 athletes simultaneously in a 4-5 minute period? It was a long day at work but I just do not think there is an example of 36 kids doing 100s of motions and skills in a 150 seconds with a small panel of judges being charged with immediate evaluation, decision making and scoring of the entire routine. In football, there are 22 players, each referee having a small section they are responsible for, and a play lasting at the most 7-10 seconds. And often, the question is only in an area where 2 players are involved, and they review. I'm sorry, but if there is ever going to be accuracy, reproducibility and objectivity in judging all star cheer, somebody is going to have to review tapes. You can have all the standardized scoring you want, but if it is not applied with some consistency, it will remain a sport looking for an acceptable system of evaluation.

This would be the best and most efficient way of achieving some sort of standard evaluation of a routine. With all that goes on in a routine, especially in a L5 routine, it is just about impossible to expect that judges are going to see everything! They need to make notes on so many different areas of a routine, and when looking down to make a note, they could miss something that could be vital in the final score. I know that this happens, as I have judged in the past, and numerous times I was asked "what did they just do, or what was that, did she just fall, etc". You can't argue with hard evidence, when you get to take a second look in a review!

 

[BlueCat]

How about a shorter season? Football competes for 3 months. Baseball/softball competes for 3-4 months. A shorter season would be less wear and tear on the athletes' bodies but the companies would earn less so it probably wouldn't happen.

If by "companies earn less", you mean "no cheer gym could possibly stay in business", then I agree.

Could cheer coaches improve their year-round practice strategies by learning more sports physiology and specific training methods to combat repetitive-motion conditions? Probably. I also know that, generally, youth of today get far too little exercise. Keeping active helps tremendously with fitness level and body composition. I think that the overall trade-off is positive.

 

[BlueCat]

I like the idea of judges getting to see a replay of the routine before submitting their scores. That would be fairly easy to do with today's technology. It may slow the pace of a competition down a bit, but I think that is a fair trade-off if they get the scores right.

This issue becomes much more noticeable as you move into the higher level, more elite teams. There is simply too much going on to possibly see everything that happens in that 2.5 minutes.


On the concept of the awards ceremonies - Like NCA College Nationals, NCA tried this with their other nationals several years ago. They had teams basically wait for their scores after they competed. It took 2-3 other routines worth of time before they were announced, but I really liked that format. The actual awards ceremony itself was less dramatic, but it made the overall event more exciting because there was essentially drama happening the whole day. I think it was a better experience for the crowd - it gave them more to do and pay attention to.

This would still allow for coaches to review the scores and confirm their accuracy before the results were "final." As many scoring mistakes as I have seen over the years, I think this is an important issue.

To tie this in with another point - I would NOT release the category scores of other teams until the last team had performed their routine. I would then let all of the coaches see all of the scores within their division and give them at least 10-15 minutes to review before the results were made "final." I would only release all category scores of all teams to everyone after the event was completed.

 

[allgoodpeople]

I like the idea of judges getting to see a replay of the routine before submitting their scores. That would be fairly easy to do with today's technology. It may slow the pace of a competition down a bit, but I think that is a fair trade-off if they get the scores right.

This issue becomes much more noticeable as you move into the higher level, more elite teams. There is simply too much going on to possibly see everything that happens in that 2.5 minutes.


On the concept of the awards ceremonies - Like NCA College Nationals, NCA tried this with their other nationals several years ago. They had teams basically wait for their scores after they competed. It took 2-3 other routines worth of time before they were announced, but I really liked that format. The actual awards ceremony itself was less dramatic, but it made the overall event more exciting because there was essentially drama happening the whole day. I think it was a better experience for the crowd - it gave them more to do and pay attention to.

This would still allow for coaches to review the scores and confirm their accuracy before the results were "final." As many scoring mistakes as I have seen over the years, I think this is an important issue.

To tie this in with another point - I would NOT release the category scores of other teams until the last team had performed their routine. I would then let all of the coaches see all of the scores within their division and give them at least 10-15 minutes to review before the results were made "final." I would only release all category scores of all teams to everyone after the event was completed.

Well, looks my idea is going to make it. I had heard about this a few months ago, but to his credit, Mr. Brubaker is going to make it happen.

http://www.insidecheerleading.com/conte ... 1&zoneid=1

 

[CDRCoach17]

How about a shorter season? Football competes for 3 months. Baseball/softball competes for 3-4 months. A shorter season would be less wear and tear on the athletes' bodies but the companies would earn less so it probably wouldn't happen.

Football players train early though while the season may end november, december(depending on how far they make it) they start training again in feburary or so. As for cheer a lot of 1-4 teams end the season in march and don't start until usually may. I like having year round cheerleading, it keeps me busy!

haha i play college ball, we just started workouts. we train just as long as yall do

Agreed. I played D1 ball. We train year round just like cheerleaders. Once you finished the bowl game....2 weeks off..back to off season training. Bigger, stronger, faster.

 

[cash$$$]

I have a few...

#1 Make judges accountable. Competitions are so large and there are so many on any given weekend that the talent pool of judges is very low. "All Judges Decisions Are Final" is an easy way for event producers to cover their tail when they get something wrong. Gyms have to be safety certified and pay money to be a USASF gym, competitions have to pay money to be a USASF company. Make the judges put some skin in the game.

#2 Get rid of Senior Level 4.2! See #4 below for reasons.
#3 Get rid of Senior Open 5! Dumb division! Popular, but does not comply to any type of progression. See #4 below for other reasons.

#4 Make levels AGE and SKILL appropriate. A senior level 2 team SHOULD be able to extend a liberty, maybe not a scale full down but definitely a liberty. A mini 3 team SHOULD NOT be able to do extension full downs or full twisting baskets. Therefore, re-evaluate all skill levels to allow certain skills when the kids get to a certain age. I will use baskets as my example:
Mini age = no basket tosses regardless of level.
Youth 2 = straight ride,
Youth 3 = toe touch/pike etc (no twisting baskets)
Youth 4 = two skill baskets and straight full twist baskets,
Youth 5 = Kick full basket is the max.
Increase the difficulty slightly with age so there is always something ahead for each athlete even if they stay at the same level.
This would get rid of the reason for senior level 4.2 and senior open 5!

#5 Decrease the number of participants on a large team to 30. In this day and age it is way too hard for the MAJORITY of gyms to field a FULL large team. This would help to create more teams, and in turn would create more competition.

#6 The max number of dudes on a coed team would be 15. See #5 above. Only have small and large coed and I really like 1-6 and 7-15 for whoever stated that earlier.

And I also agree with less competitions, less divisions, moving worlds to different locations etc. etc.

 

[allgoodpeople]

How about a shorter season? Football competes for 3 months. Baseball/softball competes for 3-4 months. A shorter season would be less wear and tear on the athletes' bodies but the companies would earn less so it probably wouldn't happen.

Football players train early though while the season may end november, december(depending on how far they make it) they start training again in feburary or so. As for cheer a lot of 1-4 teams end the season in march and don't start until usually may. I like having year round cheerleading, it keeps me busy!

haha i play college ball, we just started workouts. we train just as long as yall do

Agreed. I played D1 ball. We train year round just like cheerleaders. Once you finished the bowl game....2 weeks off..back to off season training. Bigger, stronger, faster.

It's better for the athletes and better for the gyms cash flow. Totally agree.

 

[King]

I have a few...
#1 Make judges accountable. Competitions are so large and there are so many on any given weekend that the talent pool of judges is very low. "All Judges Decisions Are Final" is an easy way for event producers to cover their tail when they get something wrong. Gyms have to be safety certified and pay money to be a USASF gym, competitions have to pay money to be a USASF company. Make the judges put some skin in the game.

I like this idea but maybe approach it in a different way. The USASF could have a division that only works with judges. You have to be certified ( on EACH level) and evaluated after each competition. If a judge has a bad record then reprimands, diminish in pay scale, and eventual release of the judge if necessary. Instead of negative reinforcement put positive in there for doing a better job. Increase in pay for years and quality of judging. As well, a truly great judge who can do level 1 correctly AND level 5 correctly is hard to come by. I wish the USASF and competition companies would recognize that and bring in the right people for the right divisions.

#2 Get rid of Senior Level 4.2! See #4 below for reasons.

agreed

#3 Get rid of Senior Open 5! Dumb division! Popular, but does not comply to any type of progression. See #4 below for other reasons.

i like this division. non worlds based and allows fulls for all the teams crying full about not having doubles. explain more down below.

#4 Make levels AGE and SKILL appropriate. A senior level 2 team SHOULD be able to extend a liberty, maybe not a scale full down but definitely a liberty. A mini 3 team SHOULD NOT be able to do extension full downs or full twisting baskets. Therefore, re-evaluate all skill levels to allow certain skills when the kids get to a certain age. I will use baskets as my example:
Mini age = no basket tosses regardless of level.
Youth 2 = straight ride,
Youth 3 = toe touch/pike etc (no twisting baskets)
Youth 4 = two skill baskets and straight full twist baskets,
Youth 5 = Kick full basket is the max.
Increase the difficulty slightly with age so there is always something ahead for each athlete even if they stay at the same level.
This would get rid of the reason for senior level 4.2 and senior open 5!

I definitely think the practicality of ages and levels should be taken into account and some divisions gotten rid of. 4.2, Mini 3, and Senior 1 should be gone.

I think Senior 2 can definitely be adjusted to senior 2.5. Slight adjustments could be extended stunts (but no cradles from one legs and straight cradles from two legs) straight trick baskets (but no twisting) and modify pyramid rules to allow for arm double braced release moves that stay upright (and then in level 3 allow double brace with arm leg).

I dont know about opening up skills as ages progress because we are dealing with girls and their 'peaks' are definitely earlier than the senior age. Coordination and movement and general maturity look goes up, but its a bumpy road with skills. I think Worlds should have an age floor (14 IMO) and that is the eventual goal. Even All Levels (if it was senior only) would give kids something to look forward to when they are older.

#5 Decrease the number of participants on a large team to 30. In this day and age it is way too hard for the MAJORITY of gyms to field a FULL large team. This would help to create more teams, and in turn would create more competition.

I think you do it by 4's if you do it. 32 or 28. that way no random awkward 2 front spots. and since I hate even number formations of stunts, lets do 28.

#6 The max number of dudes on a coed team would be 15. See #5 above. Only have small and large coed and I really like 1-6 and 7-15 for whoever stated that earlier.
And I also agree with less competitions, less divisions, moving worlds to different locations etc. etc.

i like the idea of shifting how coed is done, but i stand by what i said earlier. i think 3 coed divisions make the most sense. you have your gym with a large group of girls and one boy? large limited. you have your gym with a small group of girls and one boy? small limited. you have a lot of boys and want to go for that coed look and feel? medium ish (the 7-15). again, no hard numbers, but adjust to fit the situation.

 

[ItsDarrell]

Let's throw out some crazy ideas that you think might be good for the industry. Kind of like "brainstorming", you don't have to automatically think that they should be implimented right away - just some "food for thought" type stuff. They may even end up being terrible ideas, but maybe they get the thought process going.
I'll start:

1. No more "small gym" or "large gym" divisions. Let gyms declare before the season whether they are Division I or Division II. (roughly like NCAA). This is based on your OWN assessment of your experience/talent level. ALL your teams have to compete in that "division" or category for that season - no switching around competition to competition. ONLY Division I programs are eligible for Worlds. If there are enough teams in a competition division, the event producer splits the teams into D1 and D2..

LIKE

2. Standardized scoresheet/score system While you are at it, make scores more closely reflect what the athletes want to work on and what the audience wants to see. Option: Let each event producer put their own "multiplier" in front of each category score to "weight" them however they feel is appropriate..

LIKE

3. Event producers MUST share ALL scores from ALL teams. We want to know why Team A beat Team B so we can all make our routines better. Let the teams keep their own judge comments, but we should be able to see the actual scores..

LIKE

4. Event producers should only have 1 "Nationals" per year. (multi-brand type events not included.)

............

5. Fewer divisions at Worlds. If there aren't 15 D1 teams registered nationally in any division, it gets combined with it's closest match. (Example: only 11 Large Seniors around this year? - throw 'em in with the smalls.)

DISLIKE ALOT, DEFF NOT A GOOD IDEA FOR WORLDS

6. Deductions are proportional to the number of skills being thrown. If you only put up 5 stunts, dropping 1 should penalize you even more than if you drop 2 out of 11 (do the math.)

i'M NOT GOOD AT MATH

7. Fewer, but larger events. Event producers would even be on board with this. Good luck coming up with a way to make that work, though

.........

8. Worlds rotates between Cali and Fl. (or even more locations.) Why should the same teams have to travel further each season?.

KIND OF MUTUAL ON THIS IDEA.

9. Split Dance Worlds and Cheer Worlds into separate events Many people want to do both - why not let them? Different weekends.

GREAT IDEA !!!