All-Star Crossovers And Sandbagging

[MaineStar234]

Was there ever a point where an athlete could compete on two Worlds teams AT WORLDS? Thus potentially being able to win two rings in one season? Obviously now they can't, so I don't see why the Summit should allow athletes to cross to multiple teams and, especially if their teams are maxed out with athletes on two to 3 teams and 5 worlds athletes if applicable, potentially win two rings at one event...when you think about it that way the event doesn't seem quite as prestigious as it's made out to be anymore.


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[luv2cheer92]

Was there ever a point where an athlete could compete on two Worlds teams AT WORLDS? Thus potentially being able to win two rings in one season? Obviously now they can't, so I don't see why the Summit should allow athletes to cross to multiple teams and, especially if their teams are maxed out with athletes on two to 3 teams and 5 worlds athletes if applicable, potentially win two rings at one event...when you think about it that way the event doesn't seem quite as prestigious as it's made out to be anymore.


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Yep, it changed in 2007.

ETA: and people have won more than one in the same season!

 

[Lablover]

I hope I can articulate this correctly. There are some gyms that have the philosophy that you can make a team without having all the skills (running tumble, standing tumble, stunting) required for the level. Whereas there are other gyms that require you to have all the level skills before being placed on that level. So the latter gym could most definitely have cheerleaders that have higher level skills but not all of them...the former gym will let that same cheerleader be on 2 teams. Why is it considered sandbagging/stacking in one situation but not the other? The only reason I can think is because its visible that the cheerleader is on 2 teams?

 

[cheernerd5678]

When I started my gym had a lot of crossovers between junior and senior 2. Our senior 2 was really mostly youth/junior aged except a few girls who were senior age. Junior 2 might have been created just to keep our team small and still have a place for everyone, because it was a lot of the same girls. I personally didn't cross over but there were probably 8 if not more. We had one girl who crossed from mini 1 (in her last year of eligibility) to senior 2. I didn't realize how crazy that was until later. I assume it was prior to the bottom age for senior.
This was only like 7-8 years ago, so not as far back as you were looking for, but this is my experience.

 

[NJ Coach]

After rereading The Summit rules, I have learned
1) Athletes can "cross to 2 additional teams" ....so they can compete 3 times?
2) Only 5 Worlds athletes can cross over to each Summit team (team NOT gym)
3) No crossovers between dance and cheer.
4) 10 point deduction for each illegal participant for a maximum of a 20 point deduction.
So, it's okay to compete on 3 teams and an unlimited amount of Worlds athletes could be spread among the teams of a gym. Additionally, I wonder if the 20 point deduction might not be enough to deter some gyms from taking the gamble LOL...

#1 is a USASF rule
#2 was instituted last year

I can't imagine anyone wanting to take a chance with a 20 pt deduction, but there are some incredibly ballsy people out there who don't think they'll get caught.

 

[AliciaM]

Just curious for those in the know. Have crossovers always been used in Cheerleading ? I only have ten years involved in cheer so I don't know the history prior to the that. Have crossovers always been utilized to accommodate attrition, injury, and illness primarily or is it the norm for a gym to utilize the allowance of crossovers as a training tool ?

I may be wrong but it seems that over the past couple of years the use (or should I say abuse) of crossovers has greatly increased. Does it seem like that is the case ?

There weren't really cross overs when I started cheer 16 years ago. I actually only ever started seeing cross overs used often around 6 or 7 years after I started at the age of 10.

 

[MzLyn23]

And it's happening right now before my eyes. I'm in jamfest Boston!!! So upset right now!!!

 

[quitthedrama]

CP had her first school lacrosse game and the opposing team had half of the Varsity team play the JV game as well - back to back games. I guess it happens with everything to a certain extent!

 

[klynn64]

And it's happening right now before my eyes. I'm in jamfest Boston!!! So upset right now!!!

That sucks!!!

 

[klynn64]

#1 is a USASF rule
#2 was instituted last year

I can't imagine anyone wanting to take a chance with a 20 pt deduction, but there are some incredibly ballsy people out there who don't think they'll get caught.

Given the lax rules for Summit when it comes to team participants it would be an extreme case where someone would ever need to actually break the rules.

 

[MzLyn23]

And here's the kicker.... The athletes on level 5 competed on level 2 and posted on ig that they're level 5!!! I freaking can't. I wanted to throw up that's how upset I was. So not fair in anyway. The only positive is cp and her team are hot on their tails in the day 1 standings... Literally less than 1/2 pt away!!! I'm still furious and wish that usasf and other ep decide to make some type of rule. There has to be a way to discourage it or forbid it. I'm def writing to jamfest usasf and hope someone hears. Maybe a petition would help. Who knows??? I think it hurt even more because this is cp and her teams last comp of the season so seeing as they lost their chance in DC to the same type of practice , it would suck to miss their last chance because level 5 athletes are doing bhs and are not true level 2 athletes!!!!

 

[fiercerando88]

CP had her first school lacrosse game and the opposing team had half of the Varsity team play the JV game as well - back to back games. I guess it happens with everything to a certain extent!

Not to derail the thread, but players are only allowed to play 3 halves. So if they were playing the entire varsity game, even if for 30 seconds a half, they would only be allowed to play one half of jv. If they were doing anything more, it should've been reported by the coach. It's in the nfhs rules and we coaches (it's the same for fh and lax, possibly other sports as well) typically hear all about it at our preseason meetings.

My fh and lax teams I've coached had always had a few swingers but I don't see it as sandbagging like it is in cheer. For us, and it may have been different for the team you played, the varsity kids who played "down" we're kids who didn't get a lot of, or any, playing time on varsity. This year we had about 5-6 and I played 2-3 per half so it definitely didn't effect the outcome of the games. It actually tend to make it more difficult since those swingers practices w varsity and didn't know the jv "plays".

I don't know why I've never thought of it in cheer terms, but for some reason I feel like it's different...

Okay sorry for derailment!


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[MzLyn23]

Exactly what I thought was going to happen indeed happened. Well turns out that not only are there level 5 athletes on a level 2 team but they also crossover to I believe level 3.... Our girls Hit 0 earlier today. Literally shaking and tears from everyone because we were amazed and how amazing there performance was. Well they lost to the other team of course but I give them respect because they only lost by .07 literally. Now I watched the other team and I'm amazed they scored so well when there should have bee a safety deduction throwing a shoe off the mat actually to the front of the mat during the routine. But whatever. The girls were shocked and it hurt to be so close but because some teams rather sandbag then play fair the true level 2 athletes get screwed. The win was ripped out of there hands. My poor cp who usually doesn't react was in tears hysterically crying. After this experience I can't wait to get home and begin my adventure in petitioning or requesting changes in the rules. If NCA doesn't allow it then no one should. That simple. Good night. I finally get to post so I'll post video of my caps team when I get home on the video thread lol I know it's just level 2 but I've never been so proud of her and her teammates!!!

 

[klynn64]

I

And here's the kicker.... The athletes on level 5 competed on level 2 and posted on ig that they're level 5!!! I freaking can't. I wanted to throw up that's how upset I was. So not fair in anyway. The only positive is cp and her team are hot on their tails in the day 1 standings... Literally less than 1/2 pt away!!! I'm still furious and wish that usasf and other ep decide to make some type of rule. There has to be a way to discourage it or forbid it. I'm def writing to jamfest usasf and hope someone hears. Maybe a petition would help. Who knows??? I think it hurt even more because this is cp and her teams last comp of the season so seeing as they lost their chance in DC to the same type of practice , it would suck to miss their last chance because level 5 athletes are doing bhs and are not true level 2 athletes!!!!

I feel for you. Been there before and it doesn't feel good. It leaves me incredulous to believe that coaches are fine with doing this. They'd probably be willing to take candy from a baby too.

Why USASF and/or the EP's would allow this to take place is beyond me. I realize the answer isn't a quick fix but at least make some sort of effort

For the time being boycotting the EP's events is about the only thing in our power. And, unless you're with a Mega-gym and the entire gym boycotts, the EP won't even notice your absence.

Exactly what I thought was going to happen indeed happened. Well turns out that not only are there level 5 athletes on a level 2 team but they also crossover to I believe level 3.... Our girls Hit 0 earlier today. Literally shaking and tears from everyone because we were amazed and how amazing there performance was. Well they lost to the other team of course but I give them respect because they only lost by .07 literally. Now I watched the other team and I'm amazed they scored so well when there should have bee a safety deduction throwing a shoe off the mat actually to the front of the mat during the routine. But whatever. The girls were shocked and it hurt to be so close but because some teams rather sandbag then play fair the true level 2 athletes get screwed. The win was ripped out of there hands. My poor cp who usually doesn't react was in tears hysterically crying. After this experience I can't wait to get home and begin my adventure in petitioning or requesting changes in the rules. If NCA doesn't allow it then no one should. That simple. Good night. I finally get to post so I'll post video of my caps team when I get home on the video thread lol I know it's just level 2 but I've never been so proud of her and her teammates!!!

Loss is hard. Loss to a sandbagging team is excruciating. It shouldn't happen. It's beyond wrong and unfair to the athletes who should be celebrating a win as I type this. I'm so very sorry you had to experience this kind of unethical. unsportsmanlike behavior.

 

[quitthedrama]

Not to derail the thread, but players are only allowed to play 3 halves. So if they were playing the entire varsity game, even if for 30 seconds a half, they would only be allowed to play one half of jv. If they were doing anything more, it should've been reported by the coach. It's in the nfhs rules and we coaches (it's the same for fh and lax, possibly other sports as well) typically hear all about it at our preseason meetings.

My fh and lax teams I've coached had always had a few swingers but I don't see it as sandbagging like it is in cheer. For us, and it may have been different for the team you played, the varsity kids who played "down" we're kids who didn't get a lot of, or any, playing time on varsity. This year we had about 5-6 and I played 2-3 per half so it definitely didn't effect the outcome of the games. It actually tend to make it more difficult since those swingers practices w varsity and didn't know the jv "plays".

I don't know why I've never thought of it in cheer terms, but for some reason I feel like it's different...

Okay sorry for derailment!


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I think every reason you justified your Varsity players crossing down to JV is every cheer coach's reason for crossing higher level to lower levels. I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but just that it happens in other sports. Obviously there is the difference of a player not being able to play both games in its entirety versus cheer where the athlete is on the mat for both full routines, but the "justifications" are the same. I truly believe there are many cases of justified crossovers, but there are also teams that cross athletes down solely to win.